06.13.08
Woah….
Wow..well there ya go. Looks like a No.
Well done to the No campaigners, they were good. They had great posters and a consistent message. The Yes was continually on the defence and had to explain why the No’s were wrong. They never gave a positive vision of Europe.
Now, I can just see the Irish Times tomorrow, blaming Enda Kenny for the whole thing.
Let’s just get it straight.
Fianna Fail spent 6 weeks saying goodbye to Bertie Ahern and two weeks getting pissed to welcome in Brian Cowen. When the hangover passed they suddenly remembered there was a referendum going on and Declan Ganley was a household name. (Though I still exclude Dick Roche from this). Waking up on the last weekend before polling day wasn’t enough. Meanwhile Enda Kenny had worn himself out going up to and down the country to public meetings while Cowen was singing drunken ballads in Clara.
Enda, take pleasure in the fact that you are not Taoiseach. Rent a house in France or Italy and take six weeks off. I know this is bad for the country, but there’s nothing you can do about it. Relax and come back in September refreshed and ready to take on Cowen in the Dail. We’ve already seen how easily he loses it. So it’ll be great fun.
V said,
June 13, 2008 at 3:12 pm
FF and Labour have to shoulder some of the blame too. Well done Jim Corr, well done to all the lunatics. Now we all take the blame.
Sarah said,
June 13, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Yes, NeoCons, the British press, arms dealers, Sinn Fein and the socialist workers. How happy they are!!!
Darren said,
June 13, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I voted No, but to suggest the No campaign was well run is madness. They were as much about the scaremongering and simplistic generalisations as the Yes campaign. Sinn Fein’s blind anti-Europe campaigning was ridiculous, Libertas’ questionable tactics left a bad taste in my mouth, Coir and their abortion platform(???).
We got the right result, I believe, but I’m not proud of Irish politics today.
Leo said,
June 13, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Labour all need to shoulder the blame.
Biffo surely must be smarting after failing the first big test of his stewardship.
I see France are already suggesting that the rest of Europe move on without Ireland. This is not good news.
The amount of people that I have met who have said “I didnt understand the referendum, so I voted no.” This is ridiculous, if you didnt understand it, what makes no a better selection than yes???
Its going to be an interesting year.
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Excuse me? What blame? This was Democracy at work.
If you don’t like it learn Russian.
Darren Prior said,
June 13, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Declan Ganley is not charismatic enough to be a household name. As far as I know he is politically only a one issue person i.e. against the Lisbon Treaty. I have no respect for his views- although he could surprise us all and have other political opinions that have not been covered in the media to date.
Gerry said,
June 13, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Can someone tell me why Ireland ought to remain in the EU now? You have rejected the direction that all the other states have agreed to move in and so should wish them well on their way and wave goodbye to them.
If you voted no because you didn’t understand he treaty, you at least understood that all other nations accepted it and were therefore rejecting their view. There is no point in hiding behind the notion that they too might have rejected it by a referenda. You knew that this wan not an option for them and voted no anyway, isolating Ireland from the common agreement.
Really the will of the people is clear here – Europe is going one way and you are not happy to join her. So be consistent and leave.
Darren said,
June 13, 2008 at 4:30 pm
@Gerry We were the only nation to hold a referendum. Do you truly believe ALL other nations are happy with the Treaty? I don’t think we want to separate ourselves from Europe – we are simply not happy with certain aspects of its current course. Why does it need to be an ‘all or nothing’ thing? Are we not entitled to be dissatisfied with parts of it?
Sarah said,
June 13, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Well run = effective.
It worked even it was a bunch of lies and scaremongering.
Gerry said,
June 13, 2008 at 4:42 pm
All other nations are voting to approve it. All other nations are representative democracies – there is not point in guessing that they might have rejected it.
They are all moving in one direction. Ireland is not.
At the heart of it Darren the Irish people should have been offered a simple choice – if you want to stay in your precious EU and then get in the tent and piss out.
If you want to behave like children seeking attention then you are very welcome to leave and plot your own course.
Consensus requires just that and rejecting things because someone hasn’t sat down and explained how there is a few quid in it for you or because you think the ridiculous fictions of no abortion, nukes or military pacts are threatened then just grow up. Or leave.
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Let them throw croissants at us. We voted and we said no.
I don’t think that the No campaign was the deciding factor. Confusion and the Yes sides gormless picture campaign decided it for me.
As I said before voting for or against the phone book would have been more comprehensible and transparent.
This was a pig in a poke.
Electron said,
June 13, 2008 at 5:04 pm
The Germans are laying the blame at FF’s door – defending Bertie took priority and the importance of the referendum was ignored for far too long. Personally, I think that it’s good that it was defeated – handing over primacy over our supreme court was a bridge too far for me. On the down side, we wont ever be able to enjoy a daily earth shattering display over the N7 by sleek Eurofighter planes that would be based at Baldonnell as part of our EU defence commitment – what a pity!
Sarah said,
June 13, 2008 at 5:28 pm
“handing over primacy over our supreme court was a bridge too far for me.”
em, EU law has taken precedence over Irish law since we joined (in those areas where we ceded competence).
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 5:37 pm
“If you want to behave like children seeking attention then you are very welcome to leave and plot your own course.”
Patronising shite. I voted in a democracy. If you don’t like the result then maybe Democracy is not for you. There are daily flights to Moscow and Beijing.
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 5:38 pm
I voted not like the owner of this blog!
Darren Prior said,
June 13, 2008 at 6:28 pm
“I voted not like the owner of this blog!”
What a childish comment to make. She is in America.
Niall said,
June 13, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Well done to the ‘no’ campaigners? I don’t think so. The ‘no’ campaigns amounted to scaremongering using half-truths and lies. Granted some members of the campaigns might have actually believed the shit they were talking but that doesn’t mean I’ll be offering them my congrats.
So many people voted ‘no’ because of issues that had nothing to do with the Treaty. They voted against allowing Europe decide our abortion laws, against the creation of a European army, against allowing Europe control our corporation taxes, against legalising prostitution, against losing our commissioner… Then there’s the ever-annoying ‘I don’t know so I’ll vote no’ voters who tend to make a virtue out of the fact that they can’t be bothered to read the information provided by the referendum commission.
Electron said,
June 13, 2008 at 6:38 pm
‘‘No provision of this (Irish) Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the state that are necessitated by membership of the European Union, or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the said European Union or by institutions there of, or by bodies competent under the treaties referred to in this section, from having the force of law in the state.” In other words, is this the moment when primacy passes from the Irish Constitution to the European version?
Sarah – what is this then?
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Well if it was as important as she said she would have rescheduled. It is either important or it is not. How is that childish? I love the putdowns.
John M said,
June 13, 2008 at 8:25 pm
I said that I was voting yes but that I resented the arrogance of our political elite. Please pay some attention to the concerns of people in poorer areas of Dublin and rural Ireland if you want the next referendum to be passed. Forget the in depth analysis of the clauses of the Treaty.
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 8:50 pm
@Gerry
“All other nations are voting to approve it. All other nations are representative democracies – there is not point in guessing that they might have rejected it.
They are all moving in one direction. Ireland is not.”
Where precisely?
I don’t normally agree with the Shinners and certainly not Youth Defence and all the loonies but to put NO voters in some kind of contrarian camp is like saying that we are too stupid to vote the “correct way”. My reason for voting no is very very simple. I want to retain my vote. If the EU doesn’t want people to have a democratic vote then we should reconsider what the point of it is. The EU without democracy is just the 3rd Reich without the guy in the mustache.
The Yes crowd were unconvincing and absent on the ground. I live and work in Dublin and I never once was doorstopped. I did get a big pile of leaflets with pictures of politicians with bad hair and vote for me smiles on them.
I am pro Europe and Pro Democracy and for these reasons I voted NO. I am not affiliated with any group. I made my decision on my own.
Tom Cosgrave said,
June 13, 2008 at 8:54 pm
The people of the country have spoken, for good or ill. That must be respected.
I do not want to see another referendum – the outcome of this one must be heeded. The people are sovereign. The Constitution, deeply flawed as it is, governs this country over anything else; it is the source of power exercised by the legislative, judicial and executive branches of government in Ireland. It is also the source of our connection to the EU, but that does not mean it should not be altered to suit the EU over Ireland.
Listening to the tallies as they come in, the socio-economic breakdown was very clear – working class voters opposed it very much. It is purely my own view, but I’d be inclined to suggest that the left-wing arguments against privatisation were the ones that had the most impact, as opposed to the Libertas arguments. It was not, I believe, an anti-government vote – the two main opposition parties called for a Yes vote along with the Government. I do not believe it was a Eurosceptic vote either. Ireland is pro-Europe and pro-EU.
I never agreed with the the way the Treaty was being ratified across Europe and that was my primary reason for voting no. I know some people reading this will be very displeased at the outcome, and I am genuinely sorry for that. I want to see Europe integrated better than it is now. But not this way. 3 million people determining the outcome of a treaty by a direct vote, with the other several hundred million not having this same very powerful method of determining the outcome, is, to my mind, profoundly undemocratic. I do not believe either, that the people in the other EU member states gave their governments a mandate to decide on this treaty; they gave their governments a mandate to govern on domestic issues.
Another issue that bothered me was the Laval case. I hummed and hawed over this one, initially inclined to accept it and hope it was a one off.
In December 2007, the ECJ indicated that the right to strike is a fundamental right, but not as fundamental as the right of businesses to supply cross-border services. It is my opinion that the ruling amounts to a licence for social dumping, and key features of national industrial relations systems face being superseded by the free movement provisions. This puts a fundamental right of an individual or group of individuals at a disadvantage to a company. It is my view that this is wrong. I had to vote no on this ground also.
I spent a great deal of time considering how I would vote on this momentous treaty. I am satisfied with my vote, and I am satisfied that I considered it from a European, and not an Irish perspective. I am a passionate European. I am not a Euro-sceptic. This was my first No vote on a European referendum. I fervently hope that it will be my last.
Sarah said,
June 13, 2008 at 9:12 pm
M voted yes but said he is sorry now. He thinks the No’s had better arguments.
You know, I have to confess I don’t really care, but I am dreading coming home and seeing Mary-Lou’s smug mug.
Though P texted me, wishing me a safe trip home and hoping the airports will be still be operational amidst the post-treaty chaos!
RJ said,
June 13, 2008 at 9:49 pm
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/87311
Interesting article on Ganley, Libertas and friends. A pretty obvious spook put up to dmage the EU. How this guy was let get away with this amazes me, why were the parties not on his case more? Will Biffo be calling George W to complain?
Add to that Shinners who wanted to increase corporate tax prior to the last election, then back trcaked and didn’t have a policy, now against the treaty in case it damaged our right to set tax rates. Democtratic deficit? They had a private army, beat the odd man or too to death and believe(d) they were (are) the legitimate government of Ireland!
Coir and its fundamentalist members should be exposed as just that, make it clear to the Kells Angels that these people essentially think women should be chained to a sink producing twelve babies each.
I was a reluctant yes voter, the quote a few places above illustrates why but these nutters have to be challenged.
John said,
June 13, 2008 at 10:38 pm
That was a really depressing result. I know there is a negative vibe out there at the moment with the downturn in the economy and rising oil prices and so on but I thought we’d keep our nerve and not be swayed by those doomsayers who have always been with us. The negative atmosphere allowed their ideas to gain traction.
In soccer parlance we’re like a team who has gone 1-0 up, and having something to protect, go completely negative. We should have continued on as we were, viewing the EU as an opportunity and not as a threat.
Those of us that are pro the EU also need to make our individual voices heard more clearly and not rely on the political parties to get the message across. .
B said,
June 13, 2008 at 11:48 pm
We weren’t voting for or against the EU. What we were voting on was changing the constitution to allow the governmnet ratify the treaty. We said no you cannot ratify this treaty. We did not say that we did not want to be in the EU.
Tomaltach said,
June 14, 2008 at 9:05 am
Electron,
Look at or constitution as it stands – the clause you already mention, that nothing in the bunreacht invalidates EU Law – is already there. It was put there when we joined the Union.
Luis said,
June 14, 2008 at 10:53 am
Many thanks to the Irish for being the voice of millions of EU citizens who voices were shut down!
Luis Sarmento
Porto, Portugal
Peter Panned said,
June 14, 2008 at 10:54 am
“It worked even it was a bunch of lies and scaremongering.”
How typical and ungracious of those on the yes side [most seem like fanatical smug anti democratic know all know very little types]
YOU were wrong why not just admit it! The reasons why there was a no vote are complex and have little to do with the specifics as opposed to the general.
As has been pointed out [and ignored] since the massive enlargement there has been a gradual but ever increasing disconnect between the PEOPLE and the institutions of the EU. For too long the Political classes have been allowed to lord it over the general populace in most if not all of the EU states.
There is nothing wrong with slowing down this juggernaut and taking a longer view of things. So what if our politicians are now embarrassed and uncomfortable? Too bad! They work for us! There has been too much wheeling and dealing between governments instead of far more involvement from the ground up and less from top down.
When people feel part of the system they respond better. The no vote was a vote for better democracy and a warning to the politicians. We don’t trust them or their judgment! And for very good reasons, they have shown themselves not to be worthy of our trust.
Also exposed is the great class divide now in Irish society where those well off who got ever richer in the past 15 plus years were inclined to row in with the elites and political classes whereas the less well off or working class plus working poor within Ireland know what things are really like on the ground floor where jobs are virtually impossible to find if you are Irish [just look at the Irish times article which highlighted the fact that 90 percent of jobs created in the past year went to foreigners!]
The huge influx of eastern European nationals now working in Ireland not to mention the huge numbers of non EU nationals working [why? and how?] underscore the fact that the politicians and the more comfortable within society are totally out of touch with large section of the people on the ground. This reflects a more broad trend and pattern in which the politicians and EURO fanatics are operating on a totally separate channel.
In short TOO MUCH -TOO FAST!
All would be fine if it was done over a much longer time period and the people were more engaged and part of the processes involved.
You cannot turn a country upside down and inside out and expect that at some point there wont be a reaction which you don’t like.
simon said,
June 14, 2008 at 11:00 am
Kenny couldn’t even get Mayo to vote yes. He is gone.
Electron said,
June 14, 2008 at 11:25 am
Tomaltach, yes its there, but at present the EU is not a legal entity and doesn’t have a constitution – Lisbon would give it a constitution with primacy over ours and we’d then become constitutionally a province – the Ulster of Europe.
Andrew Lawlor said,
June 14, 2008 at 12:09 pm
During the debate on this treaty the No campaign variously claimed that if Lisbon was ratified we would see the introduction of abortion, euthenasia, gay marriage and gay adoption. They claimed that we would see the formation of a European army into which our children and grandchildren would be consripted. We would be forced to increase our rates of corporation tax in line with whatever the French decreed we should levy on company profits which would ruin the Irish economy. Many people I spoke to also believed that a yes vote was a vote to allow Turkey into the union.
I believe that all of these claims are untrue. Whether those making them knew them to be untrue or not is unimportant in understanding why the treaty was rejected. People believed what they heard, wherever they heard it from. If you believe the above then the Lisbon treaty looks a very bad deal indeed.
The blame for the loss of the vote has many mothers. Fianna Fáil, as has been pointed out, spent too long on their leadership change to concentrate fully on the referendum campaign. The NO campaign had been in full swing since before Christmas. The goings on down at Dublin Castle did not happen a vacuum. The portrayal of public figure as greedy, corrupt, money obsessed fraudsters is not without consequence. Look at Peter’s comment above
‘We don’t trust them or their judgment… …they have shown themselves not to be worthy of our trust.’
This opinion is more widely held now, in times of endless revelation at the tribunals, and has an eroding effect on public confidence in politics.
Fine Gael and Labour did not cover themselve in glory either. Enda has been and is a disastrous leader of Fine Gael. He carries very little weight with the electorate and frequently comes accross as far to pious and indignant. Eamonn Gilmore was pretty anonymous throughout the campaign also.
Much of the YES campaign seemed to consist of putting up last years election poster with red ‘Vote No’ stickers on them. The idea that poiticians could secure a no vote simply by smiling at us from lamp-posts is just laughable.
Also, during the entire campaign the three main parties simply tried to tell why we should not vote NO instead of giving some valid reasons for a YES. It was as if we were too innocent to understand the complex workings of the treaty and so they patted us on the head like a reassuring parent and told to simply trust them, that everything was going to be alright. That sometimes works for me with my five year old son but my eight year old daughter needs everything explained – in detail.
It was the arrogance of the mainstream parties which lost this referendum. They seem to have no idea of the damage done to public confidence in politics and poiticians during the tribunal era.
Now, I’ve got to get down to the basement. Haven’t you heard, the sky is falling in?
V said,
June 14, 2008 at 1:53 pm
I assume shinners can’t read Portugese..
Luis,
Europa não precisa dos irlandeses más nós precisamos de Europa. Hoje odeio o meu paÃs e a metade da gente dele. Más podemos derrotar esta atitude porque somos europeus primeiro e irlandeses segundo.
The Crewser said,
June 14, 2008 at 3:13 pm
People should not be disappointed by the outcome of the Referendum. The people have spoken and they must be listened to. It is not the first time it has happened and for me it indicates that we have a very sophisticated electorate who will make up their own minds on issues of this nature, regardless of what the party political breakdown is on the matter. It is not anybody’s fault that this has happened, we have a written Constitution and the people must be consulted. The impression has been given here that if the issues had been presented differently, the result would have been different. It would not in my view. Lets give the general public a bit of credit for their astuteness.
crocodile said,
June 14, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Just watch FF cut Dick Roche loose, now, and pretend it’s nothing to do with Biffo.
betty said,
June 14, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Re Kenny not “carrying” Mayo—-could one reason be that FG in Mayo were not amused by Cowan kicking Kenny around and voted no to discommambulate Cowan—not very logical thinking but understandable psychology. As regards the referendum—did we really need one at all, as far as I could see all changes to our constitution were already catered in Maastrict and Nice, many of the more emotional debates were not in Lisbon at all.
V said,
June 14, 2008 at 4:43 pm
You are a joke Crewser and a ‘relic’ thankfully.
Tom Cosgrave said,
June 14, 2008 at 5:47 pm
I’m in shock. I completely agree with The Crewser!
Sarah said,
June 14, 2008 at 8:08 pm
oh Tom don’t be fooled!
“its not anyone’s fault”!
what great FF spin! It was THEIR fault cos they made such a bags of the campaign.
Andrew Lawlor said,
June 14, 2008 at 8:10 pm
The claims from the NO side that ratification would lead to us being forced to allow abortion and euthanasia and gay marriage and gay adoption were proved time and again to be utterly false. Similarly, the claims about us being forced into some kind of European army, into which our children and grandchildren would be conscripted, were also shown to be false. Many voters, however, voted to avoid these very things.
The essence of the NO campaign was to make people afraid of all of the nasty things that Europe could do to us when armed with this treaty. The essence of the YES campaign was to make people afraid of the NO campaign. Not only does this show that far from having a sophisticated electorate we have an apathetic and lazy electorate who were more than content to allow each side of the debate to do their thinking for them before voting for the side which made them least afraid. A sophistifated electorate would not have been so easily swayed by such falsehoods.
The last significant poll before the vote showed that up to 30% of no voters were voting no because they did not understand the treaty and its implication. A sophisticated electorate would have better informed itself.
It also would seem that we have a very unsophisticated body politic, who assumed that last years election posters would bring the voters stampeding to their side.
This country has had no greater friend in its history than the European Union and I make no apology for being disapointed by the result of the referendum. I think that we have undone a great deal of goodwill which we spent thity five years building within the union.
From the early reaction in Europe it would seem that one of two things will now happen. A formula will be found which will allow a second vote or the other 26 members will devise a mechanism to implement the core points of the treaty without Ireland’s involvement. The first option will be quite unpalatable as it would seem to go against the very core of our democracy. The second option, however, could have serious implications for this country for decades to come.
Game on, then, for Lisbon II
Steffino said,
June 14, 2008 at 8:12 pm
hi there, i’m from germany and i’m interessted in getting some statements for your motivation to say ‘no’ (or ‘yes’) to the eu treaty.
i’m glad the irish people said ‘no’ just as we in germany didn’t have a chance to say anything..
V said,
June 14, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Looks like you have already made up your mind there Steffino. I don’t think Germany would say ‘No’ if you had a vote, but I’ve been wrong before…
Steffino said,
June 14, 2008 at 9:21 pm
yes i made my mind up.
i think many foolish things are said now, why the irish people voted ‘no’ – and thats why i want to hear some personal statements from irish people about their reasons to say ‘no’
Tom Cosgrave said,
June 14, 2008 at 9:36 pm
what great FF spin! It was THEIR fault cos they made such a bags of the campaign.
If you believe that, you are deluding yourself – all the organisations supporting a yes vote have to shoulder the blame. Their campaigns were rubbish. Yes, FF probably should bare the brunt of it because they were in power, but at the end of the day, the people made their own decision – just look at the number of spoiled votes – that number is incredibly low – the people knew how they voted and why the voted – and that is what I agree with Crewser on.
Tom Cosgrave said,
June 14, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Steffino – my primary reason for voting no was because people like you couldn’t say anything.
Steffinos Gedankenhabitat » Stimmen aus Irland said,
June 14, 2008 at 10:05 pm
[...] Statement von Tom Cosgrave [...]
Andrew Lawlor said,
June 15, 2008 at 12:29 am
‘Before we get so close with other states we should have got to know them and assimilate them into the EU gradually and from the ground up not top down.’
Marvelous stuff Peter. Just don’t forget to tell those pesky foreigners, as you get to know them, of course, that resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
Interestingly, if one tries to get to know Peter a little better through his link (yourhavinalaugh.com) your endeavours will indeed prove to be futile. Once again we see how the xenophopes and spewers of hate and distrust do all of their sniping from the shadows. Whether it be Peter Wolfe or Declan Ganley, the defender of the weak and disenfranchised, who made his multi-millions by getting into bed with that paragon of vitue, that righteous upholder of democracy and freedom, the US military. Or Cóir, aka Youth Defence, the ulra right wing religious organisation who are so poular that they were afraid to put their name to their own propoganda.
Sophisticated electorate, my arse. Would a sophisticated electorate be taken in by these self interested shysters?
B said,
June 15, 2008 at 2:07 am
Andrew, We voted and got a result. I voted NO because i didn’t understand what I was voting for. The looney left and the looney right were let in because the Three Stooges(Amigos) couldn’t explain why or what we were voting for.
Also the long goodbye to Bertie shafted Biffos chances of getting it through. Bertie and his “won it at the races” ‘talker downers” and “loo-lahs” for me made me think he thought we were idiots and if he was recommending YES I was voting no.
Enda Kenny is so far out of touch he is completely irrelevant.
And if this was a proper EU country Biffo would have resigned having lost Lisbon. But as we all know things are different here and nobody ever resigns.
The Crewser said,
June 15, 2008 at 10:47 am
Andrew as always you are totally patronising towards the Irish voting public. They told Europe that they were unhappy with the Lisbon treaty. Good for them. I voted yes but I totally respect the right of the electorate to vote as they did. We are either democrats or we are not and now the ball is back in Europe’s court. That in my view is the way its supposed to work.
V said,
June 15, 2008 at 1:33 pm
“Too Much Too Soon”
..so says the caveman. The idea that has always held us back is still alive and well and mixed with a new type of racism that we always had, for the first time now the likes of the ICP are streaming into the light and on to blogs as the right re-asserts itself. There is a lot of pretence here from people who went to the darkside saying that they started with an open mind, the nutter bus was already in full swing.
The PEOPLE have spoken. 1/2 a percent of them anyway. Assimilation from the ground up??? How about from side to side? or diagonally from one corner? What are you talking about mate? You have not got a clue.
The worst are the members of the left, my own age, with many of the same views allowing themselves to get lazy and corrupt and be drawn into pointless protest by not just stalinsts this time, but arms dealers, classical liberals and militant nationalism, ‘useful idiots’ indeed.
Andrew Lawlor said,
June 15, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Crewser, I am as much a democrat as you are. I accept the result of the referendum but that does not preclude me from being disappointed by that result. Neither does it preclude me from presenting my own analysis of why that result occured. There can be no doubt that a significant proportion of the electorate simply did not understand the treaty or cast their vote on a completely false understanding of the treaty. It is clear that a good many voters believed that a yes vote would lead to abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage, conscription to a European army, the admittance of Turkey to the union. Most voters I spoke to had no understanding of hoe the new qualified majority voting would work.
You may call it patronising but to me it is quite obvious that most people just could not be bothered to inform themselves and simoly accepted what they were told. That is not a sophisticated electorate by any measure.
Also, as for Peter’s contention that there is some kind of establishment bogey man out there trying to trick us – well let’s just say that this is really not borne out by thirty five years of experience within the union. The Europeans would seem to be light years ahead of Ireland when it comes to the provision of public services etc. Remenber ‘closer to Boston than Berlin,’ anyone?
Still, if you make people afraid you can make them believe anything. Weapons of mass destruction, Britain can be attacked wiyhin 45 minutes. Evil Europeon establishment wants to force us to adopt abortion. Classic.
There will be another vote. Of that I am certain. It may be unpalatable but it will happen.
B said,
June 15, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Sure Andrew! If we “vote the wrong way” we get a re-vote. Sounds democratic to me.
mike said,
June 15, 2008 at 7:12 pm
I voted NO to changing our Irish Constitution. (That’s acually what we voted on) Had we voted yes this time, it would have been the last time we would ever get the oportunity to vote on our own destiny. A YES vote would have ceeded decision making on such future issues to the European Non-Elected Politicians. In Ireland we have already “lost” our local councils. They have been replaced by non-elected County Managers who have ultimate say on all local issues. We still elect local councillors but they are completely impotent, well paid, stooges. NOW we are being asked to do the same at National and EU level. We can not allow un-elected, un-known politicians decide on our fate. We are pro-European but we are foremost Pro-democracy and there is no disgrace in standing up for National self determination. Leaders of Germany, France, U.K. and other European countries are now trying to belittle our DEMOCRATIC deciscion and railroad the treaty through at all costs. One politician in Germany referring to us as a Minority of a Minority of a Minority. What does this comment say about what kind of “influence” Ireland will have in the new EU Superstate? DOES EUROPE REALLY WANT TO BE RULED BY THESE TYPE OF INDIVIDUALS who will be able to do so with impunity and with no popular mandate ? The rest of Europes citizens need to support the Irish peoples decision.You dont need a referendum to voice your popular disapproval. The Irish “Government” won’t be supporting the Irish “people” : they are firmly entrenched in the EU politicians bed. Comfortable for an elite few !
We in Ireland have had a say on all treaties which required an amendment to our constitution.
The people of Ireland have made good and important decisions by referendum in the past, not least, agreeing to changes in the constitution which removed Irelands claim on Northern Ireland which paved the way for the historic and internationally important “Peace Process” in N. Ireland. We are an educated people and we are very much more aware of what happens around Europe than most other Europeans are aware of what happens in Ireland. If we are presented with a logical and well defined argument we will embrace it. If however, we are presented with a re-hacked, previously defeated treaty/constitution, with no reason to vote yes other than to “do as the politicians say”, then thats not good enough.
Just because we are already part of an EU system that dictates to us, does not mean that when we are given a rare opportunity of democratic input we should endorse bad after bad and make an irresponsible change to our constitution to placate the EU “large and elite”.
The Crewser said,
June 15, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Thing is B its not possible to have a further referendum on the Lisbon treaty without amendments being made. It was the same with the Nice equivalent some years ago. The Irish people say they want a better deal than what was put on the table. I say fair play to them. Andrew may not be pleased but thats tough because a better deal we will have. Some Nations may accept whatever is thrown at them but not the Irish.
Andrew Lawlor said,
June 15, 2008 at 7:57 pm
B,
Don’t shoot the messanger. I am merely pointing out the obvious. We will have a re-vote on Lisbon. Whether that is right is extremely debatable, but it will happen. I voted yes last Thursday so it is obvious that I think the country made the wrong decision. I am a democrat and I can differ poitically without recourse to anything more serious than a robust debate and perhaps a strong rebuke – unlike some on the NO side in this campaign. When we voted for Nice I voted yes the first time. I thought the second vote was wrong and was a slap in the face for democracy and I voted No second time round. If a majority of the Irish nation wants to move away from the centre of European affairs then that is their democratic will. It was, I think, a very misinformed decision, but it is the decision we have. Those whom we elect to govern us can not envisage a future where Ireland is excluded from the decision making at the heart of Europe and so they will find a way to put this back to the people. I may well vote NO the second time around, or I may decide that the issues are too serious to register a protest.
Lisbon II. Coming your way early next year.
B said,
June 15, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I think the issues IN the treaty that were never discussed are too important to vote YES to.
The decision may be misinformed but having the Bertie show stealing the limelight that should have been devoted to gettiing the treaty thrashed out was a disgrace.
We went from the longest goodbye and hello in the history of politics into crap about “winning it at the races” into a treaty. Is it any wonder the electorate was pissed off?
Also handing over power to Brussels is no glib matter. If they retaliate it is probably time to think about leaving the EU. If they can’t handle democracy we should make our excuses and leave. We might even be better off if we had control over our own economy again.
I never thought I would hear myself say this.
betty said,
June 16, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I now think that NO might in the long run be a good result. The establishment needs a reality check now and again and a permanent ruling elite forget that they are the sevants of the people , not their masters. They forget the common good and see their only function as perpetuating themselves, imagine proposing an unelected head of Europe, I fully realise the 6 months presidency is not realistic –it is only used as a glory trip anyway . Lisbon should have been about dignity for everyone , not a “better deal ” for whoever held the most aces.
Electron said,
June 16, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Betty, I agree, the politicians need to come down to earth – this European project has projected a lot of them into such a big picture that they’ve lost touch with reality. Mr. Cowen with his loyalty to party above loyalty to country and honesty is a great example of disconnection from reality. His salary comes from all the taxpayers and not from FF supporters alone.
Sean said,
June 25, 2008 at 12:25 pm
So we made the “wrong” decision! Maybe we made the wrong decision at last year’s General Election? Will we get a re-run?
The people voted no because they didn’t like the speed at which the EU is proceeding. The Lisbon treaty is dead. The “Yes” camp should stop fooling themselves by believing that the people were influenced by abortion, conscription or prostitution issues. We are not that stupid.
Brian Cowen should tell his EU colleagues that the Irish people will not stand for this rehash of the EU Constitution, rejected by the French and Dutch, and demand better. We are a sovereign, pro-Europe nation and will not tolerate being lectured on how to think. Our Government now has a strong mandate from the people. Let’s drop the cap-in-hand, apologetic mentality and stand up for ourselves in Europe. Let them stop whinging and go out and tell the Brussels crowd that they are totally disconnected from the majority of their citizens and that they must start listening before some of the other 26 get an attack of democracy and begin asking their citizens how they feel about the new Super-State.
Sarah Carey takes a swipe at The Sunday Times over Lisbon - Page 26 - Politics.ie said,
November 27, 2008 at 9:40 pm
[...] same one who gallantly explained that she was in America and could not vote in the referendum? GUBU Woah…. So is it true then? [...]
V said,
November 28, 2008 at 12:48 am
‘Politics.ie’ is strictly for political Tit Monks
Darren J. Prior said,
November 29, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I didn’t paste that link up Sarah but as you may know on a hell of a lot of topics on that site negativity is more common than positivity and it’s impossible to win or get the last word. Threads on Lisbon are definitely included, of course. Sometimes you just have to put your hands up. You will be getting increasingly used to it now that you are working in a mainstream daily and not in the News Corporations Sunday Times.