The short answer : I’m an anorak!

In the end of the day, this civil service and their commissioners come up with proposals. And those proposals can only be made law by the either the Council or the Council and Parliament acting together. Since the proposals, like those emanating from any civil service, are born in a bureacracy, it is essential to have democratic oversight and amendedments or rejectsion as necessary. This is where Lisbon brings three significant advantages:
1.The Council must meet in public when scrutinising/adopting legislation
2.The European Parliament has an increased role as it’s approval with council becomes the default way of making law
3. The National Parliaments are kept involved by being informed in advance and by have a vote on certain key areas.

In my opinion these latter developments significantly outweigh the move to a rotating commission.

you’ve got that ALL WRONG.

The commissioner is NOT our man – he is appointed to look after the interests of ALL European citizens in a particular field e.g. agriculture, competition, social affairs.
Our specific national interests are looked after by the particular Minister at the Council of Ministers.

SO if the EU is negotiating legislation proposed by the Commisison in relation to the environment then all the ministers of the Environment from each member state meet and negotiate it. Then the legislation has be passed by the Parliament in which our MEPs have a say. And of course, FG is a member of the EP, one of the biggest and most influential parties.

THAT’s why Mansergh was able to say the ministers are so preoccupied with Europe.

The commissioners DO NOT represent the country.

one more point, when Ministers say “oh Europe did this” they are being very disingenuous since THEY approved of it at the Council. NOW they won’t have that excuse since under Lisbon the proposed legislation will go to the national parliaments first where national reps will have an input. No more blaming Europe after the fact since we’ll get an opportunity to debate it before the fact.

Look at the mindless return of Bev (face for radio) Flynn in Mayo, Wednesday Wallace in Meath East and doubtless many others around the country who promise little and deliver nothing.

Our politicians are the dregs that weren’t smart enough to emigrate and stayed to manage the old and the old fashioned. The Ireland of the 70’s and 80’s

Ireland is not full of old people and the old fashioned. We have an underrepresented 10% of our population who are immigrants with no vote and a disenfranchised vote under 35 who just go to work and get on with it and ignore the rambling and horse trading politicians.

Don’t even get me started on the Greens. Poachers turned gamekeepers. I would never vote for them after selling out like they have.

What I am trying to say is that a lot of people care what is going on but a lot keep their heads down and just get on with life. That is what FF depends on. Apathy.

It surely is tempting to give the government a bloody nose – but in fact, it’s our nose that would be bloody after cutting it off to spite the face (if one accepts that Lisbon is the right choice)

As Enf points out – we elected this government – over and over. We had our chance to stop them in their tracks with their health privatisation. We passed it up.

Yes, well, I’m just back from a meeting. Mairead McGuinness was on her feet for an hour and a half explaining Lisbon and the WTO talks to the Meath Executive of the IFA. What an energetic, well-informed, articulate,charming and nice woman. The best Mary Coughlan can come up with is “Well, didn’t yiz get plenty of money from Europe in the past, not really on to say No now”. McGuinness was measured and persuasive on the detail.

One of her main points is that much of what is in Lisbon was agreed in Nice but that Lisbon is about the detail.

I don’t know what informs Tony, but McGuinness was enthusiastic about the need for changes. The EU is no longer 15, it is 27. We don’t need 27 commissioners. We decided in Nice to limit it to 18. Lisbon simply works out the detail, ie the rotation compromise in order to achieve the 18.
We haven’t lost anything. We, a country of 4 million are equal in status to Germany, a country of 84 million. Trying to persuade people that we have “lost” something is simply wrong.
Lisbon narrows the “democratic deficit” by giving more power to our representatives in the EP and including the national parliaments at an earlier stage of the legislative process.

But let me address one of Tony’s points

“if the Irish are to vote on this they need to be convinced it is good for Ireland. Let the others make their own decisions in their own best interests; that’s not Ireland’s job.”

What a mean minded argument. Why isn’t it our job to think of what is best for Europe as a whole? Why shouldn’t we lead the way to a more peaceful and prosperous Europe and offer others the opportunities that we were offered? Wars break out over nationalism, trade, food and raw material consumption. The EC/EU project works out these issues in a fantastically representative way. My father is just back from Serbia where he says the scars – the psychological and democratic scars – of their recent wars are still visible and damaging. The EU didn’t cover itself in glory when those wars were taking place – but if we can get those countries into the Union, look at the comfort and the opportunity it gives to those people.
Much of Lisbon seeks to enforce laws, GOOD laws about the environment. Why shouldn’t we do everything in our power to see that those are given the fullest support so that EVERYONE in Europe has a better future?
Ireland has a huge opportunity to be a leader. Only the meanest, narrow sort of thinking sees it solely in terms of what we can get out of it for ourselves.

Look after yourselves and No. 1? A Fianna Fail way of thinking. Screw them.

I’m back onside.