04.30.08
Ahern speech
Look, it’s terribly nice. He had a great suit. It’s a good swansong and very significant for Irish relations with the US.
BUT IT’S NOT HISTORIC.
All bloody day, historic this historic that.
It would be historic if he was the first but given that all three previous FG Taoisigh have addressed the joint houses too (Bruton, Garret and Cosgrave) and that WT, Dev and Sean T O’Ceallaigh also addressed either the joint houses or the Senate, then it’s NOT historic.
Most overused word EVER.
Bit heavy on the make-up. But jeez, Ted Kennedy coulda used some.
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Just a final bit of begrudgery from you Sarah. You just could not let it go could you. Yes it was historic, whether you choose to believe it or not. The first Irish leader who could address the Houses of Congress and declare that Ireland is at peace. Ridding this country of begrudgery will be another major task.
Bob said,
April 30, 2008 at 10:31 pm
As far as I am aware Bertie’s also the first international figure to have addressed both the two houses of westminister and the joint houses of congress, which objectively would qualify it as historic, in fairness.
Frank Ryan said,
April 30, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Oh boy! It was a bloody awful speech, but before I get to that lets put some perspective on things.
It may well be “historic” from an Irish perspective but from an American point of view it was really no big deal at all, In fact I asked my bro in the USA about it and he said it was not a story at all. In fact he had great difficulty finding it on TV! it was on Cspan and as he was speaking the ticker text underneath falsh up the following pearl: Ahern was resigning soon owing to corruption allegations! How funny is that?
Anyway the speech was very weak and I personally took great exception to the leader of my country having the audacity and bad manners to try discuss the internal affairs of the USA by making inappropriate references to so called undocumented [actually illegal aliens is the right term] It was really embarrassing to have to listen to this and then he talked about the “new irish” which is also another absurd term. All the while trying to make ridiculous comparisons between the USA on this related issue of immigration as if it were possible to compare such completely different countries. One a continental size nation of 300 million people and world leader and the other
a tiny little nation of 4 million people on a wind swept rock in the far flung regions of western europe in the atlantic ocean
Overall t was a poor speech indeed, not terrible but very poor
Andrew Lawlor said,
April 30, 2008 at 10:39 pm
‘Look, it’s terribly nice. He had a great suit. It’s a good swansong and very significant for Irish relations with the US.’
Feeling a bit paranoid, Crewser?
The part of Sarah’s comment referring to Bertie or Fianna Fáil was quite positive. The latter part of the comment is directed at the clowns in the media who have been in a tizzy of excitement all the day. Talk about hype!
Anyway, back to the tribunal soon enough,eh.
BTW. Did anyone hear Sam Smyth on Drivetime this evening with his sly reference to Ahern now having to return to a ‘grubby tribunal room’? The Sindo strikes again.
Enf said,
April 30, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Jesus Crewser. Don’t let me comment and block Berties ascent into heaven.
Heres the plan for the begrudgers to repent.
Lets all wait at the airport for when he comes back and throw petals at his feet. We should all cast our eyes downwards for we are not worthy to cast our eyes on the chosen one.
Lets get all the kids out in their best Irish dancing costumes for a display. We can have a guard of honour with Manchester United on one side and developers and those who gave dig outs while he was our Dear Leader.
Then we need to have a Bertie holiday that falls on the Chosen Ones birthday and in time scrape together enough money for a gold leaf plated statue of our Dear Leader in St Stephens Green.
The we need to all get together and with our best handwriting write to the Pope and ask for Bertie to be made into a living saint. Then we can pass a law where all Fine Gaelers and all dissenters be sent to a cave in the Burren or exported to England with their votes removed. Just like the good auld days.
Ahh it will be grand. This democratic shit is over sold anyway.
Crewser what is wrong with a vibrant living democracy? Why does it have to be Fianna Fail all the time. Is it their country or the county of the Irish? Why can’t we just grow up and leave the Civil War politics in the past where it belongs.
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Andrew, nothing changes in your little world out there in the short grass county. Forget Sam Smyth and the other media begrudgers, the fact is the man represented Ireland superbly, not just today but throughout his entire career in Dail Eirann. Not feeling paranoid atal Andrew, I will leave that to Enda Kenny and his fellow travellers. Enda is 33 years in Dail Eireann and nothing to show for it. The way things are looking thats not about to change anytime soon.
Andrew Lawlor said,
April 30, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Bob, in my own life I have had many firsts. However for any of these first to be considered historic they would also need to be seen as significant. outside of Ireland Berties day out in Washington is utterly insignificant.
Also, Bertie as an international figure is stretchingbthings a little. Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, Winston Churchill, John F Kennedy etc. These are international figures. Bertie is, like all of his 165 Dáil colleagues, a local politician pretending to be something else.
Frank, good point about the Irish illegals in the US. We have a very strict policy here in Ireland that illegals are deported. If the Nigerian prime minister came to Ireland and made the same comments in relation to illegal Nigerians here there would be uproar. Still, if it gets a few votes for FF.
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:00 pm
And as for you Enf the problem is that you are in a world of your own. Not knowing who to support or which way to turn (a bit like Gavin) oops
You appeared intent on emigrating a few weeks ago but it seems that did not come to pass. Those faraway hills are always greener
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Andrew, I respectfully suggest that its more likely that Kildare will win an All Ireland football final than there will be an FG led Government in Dail Eireann in the next 10 years.
Andrew Lawlor said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:05 pm
And that addresses my (appalingly spelled) point perfectly, Crewser. Not.
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Andrew wasnt there some story about a spell having been put on the Lily whites many years ago which has held back their title ambitions. I suspect the same may have happened with FG. Their record is equally abysmal.
P O'Neill said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:26 pm
The meeja will soon have a shiny new toy with which to distract themselves — the “historic” Champions League final in Moscow featuring Ireland’s team (if you believe the media), Man Utd. Unfortunately there will be synergy with the beatification of Bertie, as part of the analysis will be whether Bertie will go to the match.
Andrew Lawlor said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:27 pm
As we have long been aware, Crewser, you have nothing of any significance to say. For the last six months or so you have been making the same point over and over again. Ad naseum would be a massive understatement. Get yourself out from under the Fianna Fáil spell and try to have an original thought. Life really is much more interesting that way.
The Lillies will rise again, but don’t hold your breath.
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:34 pm
Andrew, I suggest that you address the Anne Devitt €20,000.00 payment in your next response. Far from having nothing to say I can assure you that I will have plenty to say about this payment and more importantly Enda Kenny’s apparent condoning of it. You are a great man for addressing issues in the Dublin area but you are a little bit selective when it comes to FG vulnerabilities. The same could be said of Sam Smyth to whom you referred to earlier. Andrew are you happy with Enda Kenny’s inaction in relation to the Devitt payment. The local elections are on the way and I think its time you and your FG cronies came clean on this affair.
John said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:43 pm
The Crewser probably believes in a one party state. The economy floated on a sea of cheap credit. This is no longer available. The bubble has burst. When living standards fall and unemployment rises voters turn nasty. Should Brian Cowen fail to tackle the crisis effectively the electorate will dump FF. If democracy is to survive the country needs a regular change of government.
Forget about the Lily Whites. Will we have Lily Livered government?
The Crewser said,
April 30, 2008 at 11:50 pm
Don’t be deluded John. But it was a nice try to divert attention away from any questions about “Goody two shoes” Kenny. The Irish electorate would much rather have Brian Cowen running things, even through a recession that Enda Kenny or Eamon Gilmore. People remember John Bruton and the taxation of childrens shoes and not with any degree of fondness. FG have never been re-elected by the Irish people, that speaks volumes. Anyone can make a mistake and the electorate are no different, the trick is not to repeat them.
Andrew Lawlor said,
May 1, 2008 at 12:11 am
Crewser, I outlined my position regarding Anne Devitt as follows way back on 28th September 2007.
‘Let me outline this in simple English.
Ray Burke took money and it was wrong.
Liam Lawlor took money and it was wrong.
Flynn took money and it was wrong.
Bertie took money and it was wrong.
If Anne Devitt, as you allege, took money, then that, too, was wrong.’
As you well know I have not changed my view since.
Now, if you have something new to say, something which is born of an original thought and not the usual stale FF approved party line, then let’s hear it. Like waiting for a Kildare All Ireland, I’m not holding my breath.
John said,
May 1, 2008 at 12:44 am
I remember the Rainbow Coalition government(1994-97) led by John Bruton. This was a fine Government. The 12.5% Corporation Tax was a Rainbow decision. Inflation was 1.5% in 1997 under that government. It balanced the budget.
I note you failed to mention the Rainbow Government led by John Bruton. You go back to the early 1980s. Just remember that the 1977 FF Manifesto was a major cause of Irelands economic difficulties in the 1980s. Incidentally Haughey from 1979-81 doubled the national debt. Interest rates hit 21% under Haughey. Bruton as incoming Minister for Finance inherited a horrendous economic mess.In the same Budget Bruton gave a 25% rise in Social Welfare to compensate for the very harsh economic decisions.
Incidentally the IDA was established by FG Minister for Industry Dan Morrissey. I mention this to assure you that FGaelers are not quite as dumb on economic matters as you appear to think. Incidentally you also forgot about Charlie McCreevy’s dirty dozen Social Welfare cuts. The problem with some FF people is that they continue to live in the past.
All Irish Governments have made mistakes on the economy.
We have moved off the substance of this thread which refers to the use of the term historic. I have no intention of engaging in further economic debate on this thread.
Just one question for the Cruiser. Has an FF Government ever made a mistake?
dc said,
May 1, 2008 at 7:37 am
Perhaps a bit off point, but it seems the height of irony that a Prime Minister who had to resign is actually addressing the joint Houses in the US. Ah well, I guess it’s a joke all round, given the state of the US that’s supposedly run by these fair folk: a few trillion dollars in debt, a looming recession, an endless war in Iraq and not an iota of vision anywhere of how to get out this hell hole 8 years of GW Bush & his cronies have saddled the country with.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 8:19 am
John, are you telling me that the reason why that “excellent” FG led government was thrown out of office by the Irish people and not been returned since is because they were so brilliant. In the words of Dustin, get up the yard.
We are dealing with the present now John and FG have been so deeply engrossed in begrudgery that they have not developed policies which would appeal to the public. Everybody makes mistakes in all walks of life, its just that Enda Kenny portrays himself and his party as being purer than the driven snow. The double standards being applied in respect of Anne Devitt and any other politician if they happen to be on the FF side.
Ane you telling me that you too are condoning the Anne Devitt payment by your silence on the matter in the way that Enda appears to be.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 8:23 am
And just for Andrew. Do you think Enda Kenny as leader of FG has any responsibility in respect of Anne Devitt. You neatly skirt around this each time you refer to the matter. Thats what I really want you to deal with but like Tom Cosgrave you will find a form of words to avoid doing so.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 9:24 am
Crewser. I still want to leave. Or do you want me deported?
You are a broken record blinded by your man-love for Bertie and Fianna Fail.
Sarah said,
May 1, 2008 at 9:35 am
Jeeez you’re all up early.
Bob, he’s the 5th to address both Westminster and the joint houses so that’s not historic either. Historic is 1st, not AN Other.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 9:36 am
But where are you going to go Enf and will they love you any more than they do here. Will you find the peace and tranquiity you obviously yearn. I really hope you do.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 9:43 am
I think Historic is definitely when you have achieved in government in conjuction with the leaders of the most powerful and influential leaders in the world, something which has been vainly sought for hundreds of years. That is something to be proud of and something to be celebrated around the World as it was yesterday. A template has been set down for the solution of seemingly unsolvable conflicts across the globe. No amount of small town begrudgery can erase what has been achieved.
joe said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:00 am
Crewser, may I ask how you learnt to be an apparachik? Is there some special training? Did you need really good grades to qualify for the course, or can anyone do it?
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:07 am
You are straying off topic Joe, unsurprisingly.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:30 am
Crewser. To assume that Ireland is the template for conflict resolution is arrogant. Ending a conflict of your own making is not heroic.
I invite you and the Fianna Fail brethern to come and deport me.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:43 am
How misguided can anybody be Enf. Conflict of your own making. Obviously you did not pay a lot of attention to your history lessons.
Rest assured Enf that nobody wants to deport you. I believe you were born here and I hope you will stay despite all your disenchantment. Strictly speaking you belong here whether you like it or not. My advice is adopt a more positive outlook, join a political party (not FG). The world is your oyster. Oh and dont forget to get a couple of history books.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 11:05 am
Crewser. History is written by the winners or those who hide in a flour mill until the shooting stopped.
The history we were ‘taught’ is biased and not objective. Key figures were played down and modern Irish history is not taught at all.
We were pagans.
St Patrick came and saved us.
The Brits came
We hate them
They stayed 800 years
We routed them
History ends and Pollyanna is achieved.
Fianna Fail saved the day. All hail Fianna Fail.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 11:08 am
At last your beginning to grap it Enf. You have much to contribute. Go for it.
Anna said,
May 1, 2008 at 12:07 pm
“You appeared intent on emigrating a few weeks ago but it seems that did not come to pass. Those faraway hills are always greener.”
I know Enf has said he’s still here but how were you to know that at time of posting? Do you think Ireland is the only coutry in the world with internet access Crewser?
You freakin dope.
Dan Sullivan said,
May 1, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Crewser, was Bertie representing us with distinction when he spoke for money to businessmen in another state about his intentions for the Irish economy (insider trading) at that function in Manchester?
As for his turn in Washington, it was quite a good speech by the standards of Irish speech making (which aren’t great by any means – how did that crowd get a book out of it) and the delivery was very good by the standards of the man himself. That could be construed as damning with faint praise I guess. Still, t’s done and dusted now, he’s gone. While the business of day to day politics can and should move on, Bertie will bob up and down into our political rearview as his tale is unpicked at the tribunal.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 12:10 pm
As long as we have external “enemies” be it the Brits or Martians or Immigrants stealing our jobs Fianna Fail is safe in power.
If the people complain and ask for “services” tell them to F off and wait.
If we develop a democracy then they are finished.
My advice. Cash in lads.
Oh, hang on, thats already happening.
Gordon said,
May 1, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Anyone else notice that when Bartholomew talks to the Yanks he wears a suit that fits, but when he says farewell to the Dail the acket is two sizes too small. A detail, but indicative of Ahern’s, and FF’s, ambiguous attitude towards our parlimentary democracy.
Gordon
Crocodile said,
May 1, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Gordon is interesting in his reading of Bertie’s clothing; I remember there was a lot of pink in the Taoiseach’s ties around the time he was claiming to be a socialist.
These little indicators – sometimes, perhaps, unconscious – can give away a lot. Take for example The Crewser’s omission of question marks from the ends of his many rhetorical questions: does this show that he is unwilling to question, always accepting the party orthodoxy? Or does it mean that he has all the answers, so questions are in some way beneath him?
Locutus said,
May 1, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Guys
resistance is futile. The Creweser will assimilate if you keep responding, as Bertie did with the last 10 years in power. Bertie’s speech was not historic. Do you not have jobs??
Sarah said,
May 1, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Locutus – what a great choice of pseudonym.
Sigh, I do miss the Borg. What a great enemy.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 4:58 pm
The FG lot and assorted apologists will do anything to convince themselves that they are right but the free world knows that yesterday was one of those rare days when something really important and historic was celebrated in the Houses of Congress. The world media were there and todays papers prove the magnitude of the occassion. But FG people will convince themselves of anything, even that Enda Kenny can be Taoiseach one day.
Anna said,
May 1, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Blah blah blah… Bertie is God… blah blah…. Anne Devitt is evil blah blah… best taoiseach ever blah blah… corruption, what corruption? blah blah.. you’re all a bunch of Fine Gaelers blah blah….
Rinse and repeat.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Blah blah blah… Bertie is God… blah blah…. Anne Devitt is evil blah blah… best taoiseach ever blah blah… corruption, what corruption? blah blah.. you’re all a bunch of Fine Gaelers blah blah…
Look Crewser or whoever you are. I AM NOT A FINE GAELER.
The world is a lot bigger than FF v FG. Watching paint dry is more interesting, productive and more relevant to more people.
Democracy would be a nice touch too. Like real participatory democracy.
Bob said,
May 1, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Sarah
Thanks for the response and for checking out my vague notion. Your dedication to the task at hand is impressive. That said even if five others have done it, no other Irish person has have they?
I am not blindly bigging (?) up Bertie’s day … He has a lot of questions to answer, and I await his responses avidly. But not recognising his achievements allows FF apologists paint legitimate questions as begrudgery.
I don’t think historic means exclusively the first to do something. I think it means will be recorded in history as significant. In any sense of the way I would use historic, Wednesday would have to rank up there.
Even if only because it will be inextricably linked with the narrative of his departure from office.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Look Enf I have already stated that I dont care what your politics is. It appears you may have none but since you have appeared here you fall neatly into the “apologist” category. As for Anna’s incoherent piece no response is required. At least Andrew Lawlor was big enough to admit Anne Devitt has questions to answer. He steered clear of saying that Enda had also and withdrew from the deabate. Anna is however too entrenched (just like Sarah) to accept that the Devitt payment (admitted at the Mahon Tribunal) is of any consequence.
Blah blah appears to cover it as far as she is concerned.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Apologist for what exactly? Partition?
Look. All I want is a functioning country. I couldn’t care less about Civil War politics. not because I disrespect it but BECAUSE IT’S OVER.
IF A POLITICIAN IS CORRUPT PROSECUTE THEM. FINE GAEL, FIANNA FAIL. I don’t care which party. Corruption at the top allows corruption in the middle and at the bottom. It affects us all because it is tolerated. Tolerated because everyone has their finger in the pie.
By virtue of appearing in the comments of a website means what exactly. I can comment on peoples website when I don’t agree with what they say. God knows I disagree with a lot of this website has to offer. I don’t try to offend and I respect that other people have a point of view and are entitled to express them. Just because I read it doesn’t mean I agree with it.
People have every right to say what they want and other people have the right to disagree. That’s how grownups discourse.
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:00 pm
You have strayed so wide Enf that you have gone out of bounds, to use golfing parlance. Remember the ad. for Tracker Mortgages. I think you may be a little bit like the fellow who found himself in the wrong ad. Not that there is anything wrong with straying out of bounds every now and again.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Ok Ok.
Bertie made history. Yippee.
Andrew Lawlor said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Crewser, Andrew Lawlor did not withdraw from the debate. Andrew Lawlor had to go to work to help pay for, among other things, my Gaelic Telecom broadband connection. Six hours sleep, twelve hours work, kids munching on a pre-bed treat, wife at book club meeting, Crewser up my nose – ah bliss.
Now, just once more, n i c e a n d s l o w l y s o e v e n y o u c a n u n d e r s t a n d. Anne Devitt has questions to answer, no doubt. Enda should be more exercised about this matter, no doubt. As a whole, Fianna Fáil has a lot more questions to answer than Fine Gael but I wouldn’t let either of them take my spare change to the bank.
I am seriously considering withdrawing completely from the democratic process the next time I am asked for a vote. The standard off public representatives in this country is truly appalling (BTW did you catch Donie sitting on Bertie’s shoulder after the speech. He was like Long John Silver’s parrot!) To pre-empt your jibe, I don’t have time to run for office, ok. We can’t all lick Bertie’s arse and be shoehorned into Seanad Eireann.
This whole Bertie is bent, Burke, Lawlor, Flynn, etc is bent (ok, Devitt too) is nothing new. The country was founded on corruption. Dev wasn’t too long out of the flour mill when he led an army against the legitimate, elected government of the state. A few years later he was busy pilfering the Irish Press.
I know, I know, civil war politics is the bane of this country and all that, but the bastards who are now rifling through the state coffers are the grandchildren of the civil war lot. All this guff about public interest. My arse, the only aim of any of them once the seat is secured is to make sure they get back in next time. The re-election campaign starts the day after the election.
Read this. The guy who wrote this in 1973 was ostracised in the journalism community and went to Canada where he carried on his career in investigative reporting.
Anna, Gaelic broadband is provided by Imagine and your local club gets a share of the profits. It has been working fine for me for about three years now.
Andrew Lawlor said,
May 1, 2008 at 10:22 pm
It might help if I put in the link!
Read this. The guy who wrote this in 1973 was ostracised in the journalism community and went to Canada where he carried on his career in investigative reporting.
http://www.mediabite.org/article_Where-the-Sweeps-Millions-Go_95751000.html
The Crewser said,
May 1, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Andrew the speech was historic, ok. It was a first time an Irish leader addressed Congress since peace arrived on our Island. How difficult is that to understand for you or Sarah or Enf. Bertie Ahern was instrumental in bringing about a peaceful Ireland. Yes it was fortunate that there were leaders in the UK and the USA who were interested in ensuring that the discussions would finally bring peace to Ireland. It is right and proper that Bertie Ahern was lauded and applauded in Washington and around the World for his efforts.He gave his all during those crucial hours (even when his Mother passed away) to do what no other Taoiseach had ever done, not for himself but for his country. History at least will recognise the magnitude of his contribution.
Enf said,
May 1, 2008 at 11:41 pm
As I said before. Fixing a conflict of your own making is not heroic.
Andrew Lawlor said,
May 2, 2008 at 12:03 am
Yes, Bertie’s contribution to the peace process was immense and he will be rightly remembered for it. However, when all the chips have fallen down at the tribunal he will also be exposed as a corrupt, compromised politician who prostituted his office for personal enrichment.
History will also record other issues not up for scrutiny in Dublin Castle, such as the the purchase by the state of the Battle of the Boyne site from which personal friends of Ahern made massive money. History will also record his blatant cronyism – ‘I didn’t appoint them because they gave me money, I appointed them because they were my friends.’
Only a dyed in the wool party hack or a bought and paid for pretend journalist could seperate the two sides of Bertie. He is not simply a flawed individual, he is deeply, deeply flawed and his legacy will forever be compromised by that pedigree.
(Now, before you say it, Crewser, we know about Anne Devitt!!)
The Crewser said,
May 2, 2008 at 8:12 am
Yes Andrew we do and we note with interest the double standards which you are happy to accept from your leader. You managed to find a form of words (which was somewhat better than Tom Cosgrave and Sarah) to implicate yet exonerate Enda from any involvement in the Devitt admission that she was “on the take” in her own constituency. You have attempted to besmirch somebody who has given everything for this country. Someone who is in no way flawed or of dubious pedigree. Bertie Ahern was never corrupt as you state (you would be advised to watch your language here Andrew and perhaps a withdrawal of that comment would be in order) You would be better employed advising your own leader Enda Kenny to operate to the same ethical standards as he demanded of others.
Enf said,
May 2, 2008 at 8:51 am
Crewser. You are deluded and I refuse to engage with your crap any longer.
Gordon said,
May 2, 2008 at 9:14 am
I think we can all agree with Crewser that Bartholomew is history – he’s gone.
When sanity returns his legacy will prove to be fr more modest that the FF spin machine would have us believe. The North is at peace, but the deepy segregated society there is sowing the seeds of future conflict. Social partnership delivered a short term peace to industrial relations, dividing the spoils of the Celtic Tiger between employeres and the more privileged employees -excluding large sections of Irish society. It remains to be seen how long this cosy arrangement will survive in an economic downturn.
Ahern’s major legacy,and a potential time bomb, is his continuing Haughey’s policy of creating a new Ascendancy, not Protestant but FF. In addition to a small elite, mega-rich, contributing little (especially by way of taxes), he has abdicated to a large measure the Government’s responsibility, handing over real power and influence to non-elected organisations run largely by his cronies.
Gordon
PS Al that money for make-up and so little for his tailor!
Andrew Lawlor said,
May 2, 2008 at 9:47 am
In the early nineties, when he was minister for finance, Bertie Ahern received very significant amounts of cash from a variety wealthy influential individuals. Had Bertie been a window cleaner at the Arch-bishop’s palace it is not likely that these people would have felt any desire to enrich Bertie to the tune of over six times his ministerial salary in a two year period. Suerly even you, Crewser, must question why these people would feel the need to do this. One thing I have learned in business is that you don’t suceed by giving away large amounts of money for no return. He received this money because he was a government minister, because he was in a position of power and influence, because certain people believed, rightly or wrongly, that giving large amounts of money to Bertie could benefit them in some way. Simply by accepting this money Ahern prostituted his office. It is not neccessary for him to have done any favours or made any corrupt political decisions in return for this money. The taking of the money, in itself was, in my view, corrupt. Is not unacceptable to a lover of democracy like yourself?
The Crewser said,
May 2, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Thank goodness for that Enf. Now as for Andrew Lawor and Gordon Davies where shall we begin. Its tiresome to see FG people and the occasional Labourite putting forward their holier than thou views in respect of Fianna Fail politicians while they are harbouring their own dirty little secrets and protecting their leader Enda. Andrew can crow all he likes about Bertie Ahern but that will not detract one whit from his greatness. It will only serve to enhance it. Once again Andrew had an opportunity to deal with Enda Kennys failure to deal with the Devitt affair ( Enda is happy to leave it to the Mahon Tribunal) But its not going to go away Andrew. By the way I notice you have failed to withdraw your allegation that Bertie Ahern was corrupt. You are quite good at finding a form of words to protect Enda, I feel sure you will be able to do likewise in respect of your unfounded allegation of corruption.
Andrew Lawlor said,
May 2, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Crewser, I have dealt numerous times with the Anne Devitt affair. I have said that she has quetions to answer. It is implausable for her to deny a conflict of interests when she was engaged on both sides of the deal involving Joe Moran and the Northern Area Health Board. My opinion is that Enda Kenny should seek to have Ms. Devitt removed from the party as was done to Michael Lowry some years ago.
Regarding Bertie Ahern. My earlier comment was not an allegation, it was an opinion. It is my consisered opinion that if someone who holds public office, be that ministerial office or judicial office or membership of county councils etc, is in reciept of gifts, financial or otherwise, from third parties, the acceptance of these gifts is a corrupt act. The payment of large sums of cash to public representatives by wealthy, influential business people can only leave those in public office beholden or percieved to be beholden in some way to the donor. One does not need a degree in philosophy to know that accepting large amounts of money from strangers when in high public office is deeply unethical can only be seen as corrupt. That is my opinion and I believe that it is an opinion held by the vast majority of right-thinking people.
The Crewser said,
May 2, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Andrew if I were you I would think carefully before offering such opinions. It is a serious matter regardless of whether it is an opinion on an allegation. I have put my points clearly in relation to the different stances taken by Enda Kenny when he is dealing with politicians within his own party and those outside it, regarding financial matters such as those admitted to at the Mahon Tribunal by Ms Devitt.
The facts speak for themselves. Also your defininition of a “right thinking person” is presumably one who would share the double standards evident in Enda Kenny’s approach to these matters.
Those adopting a holier than thou approach should ensure that their own linen is clean. Fine Gael’s is clearly not.
Just to put the record straight there is no suggestion anywhere that Bertie Ahern is corrupt, apart from yourself.
So it’s not just me!! « sharona’s shambles said,
May 2, 2008 at 2:15 pm
[...] May 2, 2008 — sharona This afternoon on Newstalk/Lunchtime, Bertie’s “HISTORIC” speech was being discussed. [...]
Enf said,
May 3, 2008 at 12:57 am
You know what the most tiresome thing is. Some spa pigeon holing people he doesn’t agree with into Political party loyalties.
Those of who are not fascists (or wannabe fascists) don’t have a leader. The concept of personality politics is purely a fascist notion. Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Marcos all fascists and all had manufactured conflicts internally that they “overcame in the name of the people”. All cultivated crony capitalism and the cult of personality. At least in practically all these cases they could get a suit that fits.
And veiled threats re opinions as offered to Andrew there is the sprcialist subject of other “free democracies” like Singapore who sue all and sundy to keep their one party rule in power at ALL costs. Sounds like here with the FF batphone to the High Court when the lights shine into the dark corners of their “business”.
Gordon said,
May 3, 2008 at 9:49 am
Ahern received money from people who later were appointed to public positions in Ahern’s gift. The fact that the appointer had received money from the appointee was not made public at the time. Looks like coruption, smells by corruption…
Gordon
Enf said,
May 3, 2008 at 5:07 pm
I think the FF apologist conducts his “reign of terror” from work. No comments at the weekend.
The Crewser said,
May 3, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Wrong again Enf, no surprise there then. As for Gordon, well no one takes the lefties seriously anymore. A discredited and failed philosophy.
joe said,
May 3, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Crewser, with the change of leader, I think you need to go for some “apparachik re-education”. Your fanatical, weird devotion to Ahern could be construed as disloyalty to the new leader. These regime changes can be hard on apparachiks, and you don’t want to get caught out. Go get yourself reprogrammed fast, would be my advice.
The Crewser said,
May 3, 2008 at 7:25 pm
No need to do that Joe. Don’t be misled by the disloyalty which occurs when FG change leader. There is normally something of a faction fight. Be ready for one soon as I do not expect Enda to contest the next General Election. By the sound of it you too (just like Gordon and Enf) are a condoner of Enda’s softly softly, wait for the Tribunal Report on Ms Devitt. A condoner of the double standards which most rank and file FG folk are happy to go along with, for the present at any rate. Perhaps you Joe are an exception. Time will tell.
Enf said,
May 4, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Jesus H Christ on a bicycle Crewser. I am and have not, nor never will be a supporter of FG.
Can’t you dig your bigoted little head out of Civil War politics?
The Crewser said,
May 4, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Enf keep your hair on : I never said you were. You are turning paranoid now.
You do not need to be a disciple of Enda’s to condone the mans double standards.Your failure to indicate otherwise would suggest you are happy with Enda’s approach in regard to Ms Devitts admission to the Mahon Tribunal. This matter has nothing to do with the Civil war as you well know. Please keep your name calling to yourself, it simply indicates a lack of breeding.
Enf said,
May 5, 2008 at 8:52 am
I give up.
Tom N said,
May 5, 2008 at 10:16 am
Laughing my hole off at the moment. Decided to stay away rfom political blogs for a while…and then I read Crewser’s first comment. Give the girl her prosac!
Tom N said,
May 5, 2008 at 10:20 am
Good to have the Crewser in such top form. Now babysitting nephews for the day. I use the Crewser’s comments to get used to the logic of six year olds without getting frustrated.
The Crewser said,
May 5, 2008 at 10:25 am
Good to see that you are still only able to see through those blue tinted glasses Tom N. I suppose you see nothing wrong with the Devitt payment either. No doubt you will enlighten us.
betty said,
May 5, 2008 at 12:41 pm
crewser has won again –he hyjacked what could have been an interesting discussion into abuse and repeating the same mantra. When I was growing up a similar line of abuse was persued—-”yous tuk the shillin off th’aul age pinsioners” to which the retort was “yous et the free beef”Crude but effective and crewser is following the same line. The facts are—health sevice deliberately run into the ground to force everyone into private health ins, primary education a disgrace and old people let die of infection so enter bread and circuses to distract the masses–again very effective.
The Crewser said,
May 5, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Betty you are straying deliberately off the topic. Health Service was discussed elsewhere. You do not mention whether or not you are happy with Endas handling of the Devitt monies. One assumes you are otherwise you would have let us know.
Enf said,
May 5, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Crewser why don’t you just declare your man love for Enda and leave us all in peace. It is complete bollocks to accuse betty of straying off topic when the whole topic was the historic or non historic-ness of Berties inept speech to a bunch of Americans.
You are obsessed with Anne Devitt and the perceived light treatment of whatever she is alleged to have got. Get over it.
The health service is central to this whole Angola like disaster. Since 1951 it has been a political football used by your masters to score points off each other.
Tom N said,
May 5, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Crewser’s blood pressure is boiling – look at that anger! I am reminded of the song “Movin’ Out” by Billy Joel. It includes the line: “You should never argue with a crazy man!”
For those who are new to this blog we need to inform you about the Crewser. The Crewser is in fact a Fine Gael plant. The more delusional crap she comes out with, the more people associate delusional crap with Fianna Fail. She is worth an extra few points to FG in every poll.
Now…more important things to think about…oh yes…watching paint dry.
The Crewser said,
May 5, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Tom N you are talking through your hat again if you believe what you say. Clearly you are so loyal to Enda you will not give us a view on the Devitt money.
Enf said,
May 6, 2008 at 6:16 pm
I was surprised today that neither Ian Paisley nor Dear Leader Ahern mentioned the Devitt money.
Maybe today was historic. Historic in the way that a Gay Dutchman leading a rebel army against the King of England is al Loyalist hero is historic.
I was all on for a no holds barred re-enactment of the battle with the last man standing being the winner.
I am so going to hell for this.
The Crewser said,
May 6, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Stick to your planning Enf, thats my advice. I dont expect you will take it.
As long as you keep the Devitt €20,000 on the agenda thats fine. You do not even need to say you are happy how Enda handled it. Just keep it on the agenda.
Enf said,
May 6, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Broken record with nothing to offer.
The Crewser said,
May 6, 2008 at 10:53 pm
So you are satisfied with Enda’s approch then. I thought so. Why not become an FG supporter then. Someone has to be.
Enf said,
May 6, 2008 at 11:26 pm
There are so many people on take I am wondering why this one is such a fixation for Crewser. Enda made a haimes of it but he makes a haimes of everything. FG on the attack is like being savaged by a dead sheep. To butcher a Denis Healy quote.
Maybe I will pop into Fagans and see if I can get a dig out. Plenty of people there who have a record of helping a man out who has fallen on harder times.
And if the revenue come after me I will tell them that 1. I don’t have a bank account and 2. I was going through a separation.
If either of the above fail I will get elected and then tell the Irish public to F off out of my affairs.
And then I will go on and tell the people to tighten their belts. Yea, reckon that will work. Way to go. Thats a plan.
The Crewser said,
May 7, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Another nice piece of footwork by Enf. I reckon you might well be in line for honorary membership of FG at this stage despite your total disillusionment with politics. Still happy with Endas approach to Devitt it would seem. They are trying to broaden their base you know.
Enf said,
May 7, 2008 at 11:17 pm
blah blah blah Enda
blah blah blah FG
blah blah blah Devvitt
The Crewser said,
May 8, 2008 at 12:15 am
Some of your best stuff yet Enf.
Enf said,
May 8, 2008 at 9:00 am
blah blah blah.
Tom Cosgrave said,
May 8, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Crewser / Senator Harris, I see my name has been mentioned in connection with Devitt.Read (do you understand the meaning of the word?) the following a few times, to get it into your head – http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2007/09/23/ahern-and-the-tribunal/#comment-119501
The Crewser said,
May 8, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Yes Tom, I am well aware of what you said. The problem is that Enda’s failure to act raises serious questions about Enda’s leadership of FG, particularly because of his holier than thou attitude to politicians in other parties. Just like all the other contributors to this site you appear to have no view on this latter point.
Enf said,
May 8, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Ok Crewser. Lets ban Fine Gael and anyone else in opposition.
I note you are very quiet on John Gormleys position on alleged Fianna Fail corruption. What is good for the goose is good fro the gander.
Tom Cosgrave said,
May 8, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Crewser / Senator Harris – I said there was no justification for no justification for Enda Kenny not having her expelled – do I need to say anything else?
The Crewser said,
May 8, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Enf, its all about balance, not that such matters would bother you. Well done Tom for stating that.