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	<title>Comments on: St. Denis</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/</link>
	<description>An Irish woman's social, political and domestic commentary</description>
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		<title>By: Leon</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-221156</link>
		<dc:creator>Leon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:33:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-221156</guid>
		<description>Weston is problematic and should be closed (indeed I thought that it was no longer legal for private jets to land there).  O&#039;Brien can live wherever he wants.   Surely we do not demand that all Irish citizens live in Ireland.  If he is claiming a residency status that he is not entilted to claim then he breaking the law but there is no proof that he is.

He had to be public wrt Trappatoni because if he was quiet about it we would all assume that he was up to something didgy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weston is problematic and should be closed (indeed I thought that it was no longer legal for private jets to land there).  O&#8217;Brien can live wherever he wants.   Surely we do not demand that all Irish citizens live in Ireland.  If he is claiming a residency status that he is not entilted to claim then he breaking the law but there is no proof that he is.</p>
<p>He had to be public wrt Trappatoni because if he was quiet about it we would all assume that he was up to something didgy.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-220408</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-220408</guid>
		<description>but laura you are not getting the point of people&#039;s annoyance. people *may* be annoyed that he avoids tax, albeit legally. They *are* annoyed that this money saved by avoiding tax is then paid on a vanity project like Trappatoni and we&#039;re supposed to be grateful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but laura you are not getting the point of people&#8217;s annoyance. people *may* be annoyed that he avoids tax, albeit legally. They *are* annoyed that this money saved by avoiding tax is then paid on a vanity project like Trappatoni and we&#8217;re supposed to be grateful.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-220198</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-220198</guid>
		<description>Irony: when the Lansdowne Rd project - vital to the future of the FAI - was in danger of stalling, the most difficult obstacle in its way was the refusal of one of the tenants, Wanderers Rugby Club, to do a deal on vacating its clubhouse. Which wealthy businessman and Wanderers member was at the centre of their delaying tactics? That&#039;s right: St. Denis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Irony: when the Lansdowne Rd project &#8211; vital to the future of the FAI &#8211; was in danger of stalling, the most difficult obstacle in its way was the refusal of one of the tenants, Wanderers Rugby Club, to do a deal on vacating its clubhouse. Which wealthy businessman and Wanderers member was at the centre of their delaying tactics? That&#8217;s right: St. Denis.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-220170</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-220170</guid>
		<description>Gerry I don&#039;t think it is just the super rich who don&#039;t pay their taxes. Ireland has a culture of tax avoidance. You only have to read about settlements with the revenue to realise this.  The little people are also avoiding tax. Consider all the people in the country who contribute to the black economy by paying their housekeepers, window cleaners, au-pairs, tradesmen e.t.c. in cash only.  There are countless fiddlers of the system. What about all the shopkeepers, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, panel beaters, publicans e.t.c. who keep two sets of books?    I would doubt very much that there is anyone in this country who hasn&#039;t at some stage conducted what could be considered to be a dodgy tax transaction, (Gordon aside). 

Yes, of course it would be nicer for Denis O&#039;Brien to pay all his taxes but the simple fact is he is breaking no law by choosing to be domiciled elsewhere.  The tax legislation in this country allows that.  Yes, it would be more honourable for him to be domiciled in Ireland.  I don&#039;t agree with statements that he should be denied his citizenship just because he bases himself outside the country. He is not a criminal. He is just really really wealthy and he minimises his tax liability in Ireland by following revenue guidlines to avoid a tax bill here.  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerry I don&#8217;t think it is just the super rich who don&#8217;t pay their taxes. Ireland has a culture of tax avoidance. You only have to read about settlements with the revenue to realise this.  The little people are also avoiding tax. Consider all the people in the country who contribute to the black economy by paying their housekeepers, window cleaners, au-pairs, tradesmen e.t.c. in cash only.  There are countless fiddlers of the system. What about all the shopkeepers, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, panel beaters, publicans e.t.c. who keep two sets of books?    I would doubt very much that there is anyone in this country who hasn&#8217;t at some stage conducted what could be considered to be a dodgy tax transaction, (Gordon aside). </p>
<p>Yes, of course it would be nicer for Denis O&#8217;Brien to pay all his taxes but the simple fact is he is breaking no law by choosing to be domiciled elsewhere.  The tax legislation in this country allows that.  Yes, it would be more honourable for him to be domiciled in Ireland.  I don&#8217;t agree with statements that he should be denied his citizenship just because he bases himself outside the country. He is not a criminal. He is just really really wealthy and he minimises his tax liability in Ireland by following revenue guidlines to avoid a tax bill here.  <img src='http://www.sarahcarey.ie/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-220159</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-220159</guid>
		<description>I dont think my &quot;rant&quot; is unfair by any means. It is simply the case that he is not somebody I would have any great respect for but I have said that I don&#039;t know him personally and don&#039;t wish him ill on any personal level.

I dont want to be pigeon holed into being seen as an attacker of his but rather Iam reacting to HIS choice to PUT HIMSELF into the public domain and as was so well pointed out by John Burns in your own paper yesterday when you add it all up and examine there is much to be concerned about and disapprove of, more than any joy or approval for OBriens gesture/ PR stunt/ interference.

He may just be a misguided man but contrary to what you have said rather than it being a simple case  of him not being a particularly good businessman and then learning from this to go on and do better the reality is that he comes from a very privileged background and after being a failure he was given the phone thing which was ,owing to the timing etc a license to  print money and he made his &quot;fortunate&quot; all from the sale of the phone company from which he then went on to make more money. Well it would take a bit of an idiot not to have succeeded given the circumstances that OBrien found himself in. So while I would not begrudge the man his good fortune I merely resent when it it thrown back [as it was at the time through the media which went OTT] that he is anything special or to be admired. His tax thing only confirmed what a dubious character he is [in my mind]

I can state clearly that [and this does not make me any beter a man] had i been in the same situation I would have been onlyto  glad to pay my appropriate share of tax to the country which I was a citizen of and from which I made a fortune. The again I admit the sort  of GREED that is required to do what OBrien did is just not in my nature?

It is only a perspective I am offering [albeit a strongly held and at times indignant one] and maybe I  am overlooking many thigns or even wrong about OBrien and his ilk? I keep an open mind!.

What disappointed me was the sheep like way people seem so grateful for so little. As far as I am concerned you [sarah] have a far greater value to me in irish society than Obrien ever could. You seem  like an intelligent conscientious fair minded person. Have lots to offer as a mother and a wife as you document and write with wit and insight while from what I gather also a person of great integrity too. 

Now my point in saying that is to underline and illustrate that as a fellow citizen and fellow human I can admire and respect you for just who you are and what you have accomplished [as a human being - being a decent person ] but I would find it alot harder to take such a view towards a man like Obrien [though I try to keep an open mind] who seems like someone that would make me very suspicious of him and many of his actions/deeds.

I freely admit I might be wrong? But hey I am just giving my strident perspective. It all depends how we value and appreciate people in our society and I admit I am probably very unusual? I would see value and inspiration in places where perhaps we are conditioned to seeing banality.

A mother and father who raise a bunch of kids and retain their innate sense of right and wrong? People who feel too uncomfortable to screw over  people for their own personal  advancement etc etc. Yes it sounds idealistic and I dont say I or we collectively can live up to all this but it is surely worth it to try at least see things as they really are.

Oh and BTW I also disagreed with much of what you wrote in the Sunday Times yesterday but it was as usual a well written piece. Plus well meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont think my &#8220;rant&#8221; is unfair by any means. It is simply the case that he is not somebody I would have any great respect for but I have said that I don&#8217;t know him personally and don&#8217;t wish him ill on any personal level.</p>
<p>I dont want to be pigeon holed into being seen as an attacker of his but rather Iam reacting to HIS choice to PUT HIMSELF into the public domain and as was so well pointed out by John Burns in your own paper yesterday when you add it all up and examine there is much to be concerned about and disapprove of, more than any joy or approval for OBriens gesture/ PR stunt/ interference.</p>
<p>He may just be a misguided man but contrary to what you have said rather than it being a simple case  of him not being a particularly good businessman and then learning from this to go on and do better the reality is that he comes from a very privileged background and after being a failure he was given the phone thing which was ,owing to the timing etc a license to  print money and he made his &#8220;fortunate&#8221; all from the sale of the phone company from which he then went on to make more money. Well it would take a bit of an idiot not to have succeeded given the circumstances that OBrien found himself in. So while I would not begrudge the man his good fortune I merely resent when it it thrown back [as it was at the time through the media which went OTT] that he is anything special or to be admired. His tax thing only confirmed what a dubious character he is [in my mind]</p>
<p>I can state clearly that [and this does not make me any beter a man] had i been in the same situation I would have been onlyto  glad to pay my appropriate share of tax to the country which I was a citizen of and from which I made a fortune. The again I admit the sort  of GREED that is required to do what OBrien did is just not in my nature?</p>
<p>It is only a perspective I am offering [albeit a strongly held and at times indignant one] and maybe I  am overlooking many thigns or even wrong about OBrien and his ilk? I keep an open mind!.</p>
<p>What disappointed me was the sheep like way people seem so grateful for so little. As far as I am concerned you [sarah] have a far greater value to me in irish society than Obrien ever could. You seem  like an intelligent conscientious fair minded person. Have lots to offer as a mother and a wife as you document and write with wit and insight while from what I gather also a person of great integrity too. </p>
<p>Now my point in saying that is to underline and illustrate that as a fellow citizen and fellow human I can admire and respect you for just who you are and what you have accomplished [as a human being - being a decent person ] but I would find it alot harder to take such a view towards a man like Obrien [though I try to keep an open mind] who seems like someone that would make me very suspicious of him and many of his actions/deeds.</p>
<p>I freely admit I might be wrong? But hey I am just giving my strident perspective. It all depends how we value and appreciate people in our society and I admit I am probably very unusual? I would see value and inspiration in places where perhaps we are conditioned to seeing banality.</p>
<p>A mother and father who raise a bunch of kids and retain their innate sense of right and wrong? People who feel too uncomfortable to screw over  people for their own personal  advancement etc etc. Yes it sounds idealistic and I dont say I or we collectively can live up to all this but it is surely worth it to try at least see things as they really are.</p>
<p>Oh and BTW I also disagreed with much of what you wrote in the Sunday Times yesterday but it was as usual a well written piece. Plus well meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-220133</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:17:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-220133</guid>
		<description>i think the sticking point for a lot pf people laura is that Denis O&#039;Brien is choosing how he pays his own tax. As do a lot of the super rich. We applaud when they dedicate a wing to a hospital or a dept in a university or a manager to a football team.  But really this is vanity taxation. If they were paying 40% like the rest of us then they would have contributed much more and, like the rest of us, those we elect would choose how the money is invested (for all the wrongs and rights of that). 

In London the super rich who pay no tax and contribute in no meaningful way that I can see to the society of London are threatening mass emigration of forced to pay Â£30,000 p.a. Total as a fixed sum. This in a city where someone has bought a flat for Â£100 million! 

There is no easy answer as to what&#039;s fair for the super rich to pay, when they completely mobile and can move to the most tax beneficial location. At the same time though, I see little to be grateful for when they buy Chelsea, build another monument-to-greed apartment building or clog the roads with ferraris or bestow another bauble of vanity on a too grateful people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think the sticking point for a lot pf people laura is that Denis O&#8217;Brien is choosing how he pays his own tax. As do a lot of the super rich. We applaud when they dedicate a wing to a hospital or a dept in a university or a manager to a football team.  But really this is vanity taxation. If they were paying 40% like the rest of us then they would have contributed much more and, like the rest of us, those we elect would choose how the money is invested (for all the wrongs and rights of that). </p>
<p>In London the super rich who pay no tax and contribute in no meaningful way that I can see to the society of London are threatening mass emigration of forced to pay Â£30,000 p.a. Total as a fixed sum. This in a city where someone has bought a flat for Â£100 million! </p>
<p>There is no easy answer as to what&#8217;s fair for the super rich to pay, when they completely mobile and can move to the most tax beneficial location. At the same time though, I see little to be grateful for when they buy Chelsea, build another monument-to-greed apartment building or clog the roads with ferraris or bestow another bauble of vanity on a too grateful people.</p>
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		<title>By: laura</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-219957</link>
		<dc:creator>laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-219957</guid>
		<description>Gordon,

I look forward to the time when you have ammassed the same fortune as Denis O&#039;Brien.  Then you live rather than preach your holier than thou stance. i.e. only fly on scheduled flights, only use properly manned airports, only reside in Ireland, pay every penny of tax, contribute to various organisations publically (if you so wish) and privately and you can publish your comings and goings so we can all know exactly how many nights a year you spend in Ireland.

Denis O&#039;Brien is not unique in basing himself elsewhere for tax purposes. Why are you not ranting about all the other tax exiles also? 

BTW, unless you actually know for a fact and have documented evidence that Denis O&#039;Brien stays in Ireland for more than 183 nights a year, you are still libelling him. 

A man who has global business interests should be able to base himself where he likes. Luckily for us we live in a democracy and the laws of our country allow us to domilice ourselves elsewhere. 

The argument that he should relinquish his citizenship as he is not contibuting to the exchequer out of his own personal wealth is just a tad extreme. If you think as draconian a measure as that is necessary for the super wealthy, can we have the same measure for all the long time dole suckers please?. They don&#039;t contribute. Stay at home parents, non-contributory pensioners, lets take away all their  passports and citizenship rights also.  Your argument is that those who don&#039;t contribute don&#039;t deserve citizenship.   (Unless you think it is just Denis O&#039;Brien who should be singled out for his lack of contribution - is it just Denis O&#039;Brien? Why such a personal vendetta against him? What did he ever do to you?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon,</p>
<p>I look forward to the time when you have ammassed the same fortune as Denis O&#8217;Brien.  Then you live rather than preach your holier than thou stance. i.e. only fly on scheduled flights, only use properly manned airports, only reside in Ireland, pay every penny of tax, contribute to various organisations publically (if you so wish) and privately and you can publish your comings and goings so we can all know exactly how many nights a year you spend in Ireland.</p>
<p>Denis O&#8217;Brien is not unique in basing himself elsewhere for tax purposes. Why are you not ranting about all the other tax exiles also? </p>
<p>BTW, unless you actually know for a fact and have documented evidence that Denis O&#8217;Brien stays in Ireland for more than 183 nights a year, you are still libelling him. </p>
<p>A man who has global business interests should be able to base himself where he likes. Luckily for us we live in a democracy and the laws of our country allow us to domilice ourselves elsewhere. </p>
<p>The argument that he should relinquish his citizenship as he is not contibuting to the exchequer out of his own personal wealth is just a tad extreme. If you think as draconian a measure as that is necessary for the super wealthy, can we have the same measure for all the long time dole suckers please?. They don&#8217;t contribute. Stay at home parents, non-contributory pensioners, lets take away all their  passports and citizenship rights also.  Your argument is that those who don&#8217;t contribute don&#8217;t deserve citizenship.   (Unless you think it is just Denis O&#8217;Brien who should be singled out for his lack of contribution &#8211; is it just Denis O&#8217;Brien? Why such a personal vendetta against him? What did he ever do to you?)</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-219881</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-219881</guid>
		<description>Him directly about a year. Digifone another...two years? We talk every now and then. I&#039;ve no problem telling him when I think he&#039;s wrong about something but rants like that from Joseph are completely unfair and simply untrue. The tax exile thing IS an issue but pretending he hasn&#039;t achieved anything is silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Him directly about a year. Digifone another&#8230;two years? We talk every now and then. I&#8217;ve no problem telling him when I think he&#8217;s wrong about something but rants like that from Joseph are completely unfair and simply untrue. The tax exile thing IS an issue but pretending he hasn&#8217;t achieved anything is silly.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Hickey</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-219869</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Hickey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-219869</guid>
		<description>How long did you say you worked for him?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How long did you say you worked for him?</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/comment-page-1/#comment-219862</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2008/02/14/st-denis/#comment-219862</guid>
		<description>riiiiiight. So he started and failed with two companies, learned from his mistakes and went on to set up dozens of other companies which employ thousands of people around the world and from which he has amassed huge personal wealth and wealth for others....

the fact that people assume he is not honourable simply shows the lack of justice he has gotten from the Irish state - it is casually assumed by most that the awarding of the licence was corrupt. I have said before, on this blog, in the paper and to his face, that I don&#039;t approve of the tax exile thing, but quite frankly, given the treatment he has gotten, I think he owes Ireland very little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>riiiiiight. So he started and failed with two companies, learned from his mistakes and went on to set up dozens of other companies which employ thousands of people around the world and from which he has amassed huge personal wealth and wealth for others&#8230;.</p>
<p>the fact that people assume he is not honourable simply shows the lack of justice he has gotten from the Irish state &#8211; it is casually assumed by most that the awarding of the licence was corrupt. I have said before, on this blog, in the paper and to his face, that I don&#8217;t approve of the tax exile thing, but quite frankly, given the treatment he has gotten, I think he owes Ireland very little.</p>
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