08.28.07
Show your children the door
It’s easier than ever to get into college, but CAO mania remains a staple feature of the media calendar. The annual hysterics over who gets what place mystify me. I left school in the 1980’s when there were more applicants than places and the Central Applications Office was needed to distribute those as fairly as possible. These days there are so many places that colleges are actually advertising for students. “Ah!”, they tell me, “but competition is still tough at the top. If you want to do law at Trinity, every point makes a difference. ”
I wish someone would tell stressed out students and parents that you don’t need a law degree to practice law. I know plenty of barristers and solicitors with arts degrees and plenty of law graduates who quickly realised the Four Courts was no place for them.
Most people I know changed their careers at least three times before they hit 35 so what they studied at college turned out be largely irrelevant. I’m not arguing that a degree is unnecessary. Unless one has been privileged enough to attend a Jesuit school an Irish secondary education is pretty shabby. In academic terms I learned two things in university: don’t split the infinitive and don’t believe everything you read. Despite the fact that I read History I still have no idea when Cromwell was born but these other lessons have proved invaluable.
College is important but not for the reasons listed by career guidance teachers. Fortunately Auntie Sarah is willing to be the bad influence your parents warned you about.
Here’s the first rule: pick the college not the course. Here’s the second; pick a college far away from home. For students, the most important thing about college is moving out of home. For parents, this is the excuse you need to get your adult children out of the house. Yes its scary for both parties. The cowardly youth fond of well stocked fridges has reason to squirm at the prospect of sour milk and days of toasted ham sandwiches. The protective parent will tremble at the thought of crummy flats with large rents and all night parties.
I can assure parents that throwing them out now is the wisest move you’ll ever make so sit up and pay attention. Compare the comfortable Dublin south-sider and his rural counterpart who attend UCD. Three years later they might both have a degree. One will be a relatively mature adult and the other a twenty one year old child.
Third level education is partly about education but mostly about growing up and growing apart. This is not just a natural process but an essential one. You can’t grow up if your mother is still putting your dinner on the table at six o’clock every day.
Being a student is about having no money, learning how to make spaghetti bolognaise and realising that mould will grow in the bathroom if its not cleaned once a month. You could find these things out when you are thirty two, but trust me, you’ll be a much nicer person if you’ve learned them by twenty two.
Parents might baulk at the costs involved and while it would be tempting to save on rent, it’s a false economy. Bear in mind that there are no fees for attending college. Given that primary schools only get two thirds of their costs from the state thus forcing parents to fund the deficit, this is an outrage. It’s a bigger one when you consider that thousands of students will leave fee paying secondary schools to enter free third level education. The parent of today’s third level student is already up on previous generations who had to fork out the annual fees.
Still, it might be hard to see it that way when bills for so many other things pile up o the table. Consider though the cost of having an adult living in your house. Think of the food they eat and the energy they consume : mental and electrical. Light, heat, phone bills, not to mention the twenty quid they’ll tap you for every time they leave the house. Maintaining a student at home is not free.
If your adult child lives at home, who goes to the supermarket? You do. Who opens the ESB bill and resolves to start switching off lights? You do. Who wonders at what time the possibly drunken irresponsible sponger will come home? You do. Who ends up having petty domestic arguments over the TV? You do. When will your child learn to cohabitat with other humans? Never. Remember, your adult child doesn’t see you as another person who is deserving of compassion, respect and personal space. You’re a resource. A place to stay and a wallet. Obviously if you got sick and died they’d be quite upset but in the meantime you’re someone they have to lie to about their whereabouts last night. Is this really the kind of relationship you want with your child?
“Oh, but my son or daughter isn’t like that” you cry. “We have a great relationship”. Well alright, you might have a great relationship with them, but that’s not the point. When they were small you toilet trained them, taught them how to eat and how to dress. You were teaching them independence. Why stop now? Maybe you are happy to make a dinner for them every evening. But perhaps their future spouse won’t. You have to view the third level system as an opportunity for advanced toilet training. Keeping them at home is the equivalent of keeping them in nappies. No adult will learn the virtues of domestic economy until they are the ones opening the bills.
“But the money! the money! I can’t afford to pay rent for them.” This is what summer jobs and student loans are for. I keep hearing about third level students going on holidays. In the past when we were poor but happy students didn’t take holidays. They went abroad and had a good time, but the purpose was to earn money. The friendly student officer at the local bank was very friendly and saw plenty of people through college. A little bit of debt won’t hurt your precious offspring one bit. If they have to spend their own money instead of yours, you are doing them a favour.
I’m not saying you have to go as far as the Spartans who sent small boys up the mountains to forage for themselves, but you get the picture. While they’re at college the student will learn how to be a vet, a computer programmer or a teacher. While they’re at home, they won’t learn anything. You might want them to be a lawyer but I presume you also want them to grow up. Show them you care and show them the door.
Sarah said,
August 28, 2007 at 5:20 pm
I already got an email from a pissed off parent who said I was EXACTLY right and is giving her three student stay at home children 3 months notice. Hurrah
(though I guess her children won’t be pleased..eeek
ben said,
August 28, 2007 at 9:15 pm
By what metric, compared to what, can an Irish secondary education considered “shabby”? That’s just absurd.
CG said,
August 28, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Haha you’re dead right Sarah. And you should have mentioned the benefits for the offspring as well. I knew a girl who was still on the same curfew system with her parents in 1st year of college as she was in 6th year. She had to be in before midnight six days a week! What kind of college experience is that?!
dc said,
August 28, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Bravo!!! Spot on.
I left home at 17 and had to learn the hard way. I couldn’t even boil an egg!
Meanwhile I have a sister (who works full time), who until recently was cooking, cleaning and washing for her 32 year old son who had a managerial position in a corporation! Only way it’s stopped is he’s gone off to the US.
Copacetic » Blog Archive » Throw them out said,
August 28, 2007 at 10:21 pm
[...] gives some excellent advice on turning your children into Adults via the college route, …pick a college far away from [...]
brian t said,
August 29, 2007 at 12:02 am
No fees? I just forked out €932 on “Student Service Fees” for UCD. Then there’s the cost of books, food… oh yes, the cost of rent in South Dublin (or the cost of commuting from somewhere affordable).
Yes, you can get a local authority grant… if you’re willing to fill in forms disclosing your (or your family’s) complete financial history to petty local bureaucracy… for half a grant (because you live within 25 miles), or nothing if you made more than a poverty-line wage last year. I didn’t bother, for the estimated €1,000 that it would mean.
(I’m a “mature student” with no family, who just gave up an IT job to study Structural Engineering. It bloody well better be worth it!)
Primal Sneeze said,
August 29, 2007 at 4:56 am
@ Brian t – As a mature student the 25 mile limit does not apply. But then if you are afraid of disclosing income you must have money to hide so I suspect you don’t need a grant.
Colman said,
August 29, 2007 at 6:55 am
In the good old days, those of us who lived at home learned the living away lessons on those summers spent working in foreign parts. Do the kids these days even do that any more?
Tomaltach said,
August 29, 2007 at 7:59 am
Sarah, your message is bang on and sublimely put. Well done.
I come from a small village in Donegal – and I can tell you that apart from the handful who went to college, most of the others lived at home until into their 30s. My next door neighbour has two boys and two girls. The two boys lived at home until they married in their late 20s. The two girls, one 30, the other 20, still live at home, the younger with her own child. But wait, the two boys STILL come to their mother for dinner on weekdays. None of the four as much as lift a finger to help their poor mother. (Imbecilic you might say – and right. Unspeakably sad). None of this family went to college. And like you say, the point isn’t the education, it’s the growing up.
Maz said,
August 29, 2007 at 8:34 am
Sarah, I think you’re spot on with your points above, I went to college to do business, with the intention of getting into Marketing, got half way through college and decided that I’d prefer HR so did that option instead of Marketing. Left college and worked in insurance for a year before starting my Accounting exams, I know they’re all within the business field but I’ve had no more difficult a time with the Accountng exams than people who chose the Accounting option in College.
I learned more through my involvement in the Students Union and clubs and societies than I did at lectures, only a few months ago I impressed my boss by taking excellent minutes at a meeting, a skill I learned in the SU not through my Degree, I don’t think I’ve ever impressed him with anything I learned through my degree!!!
leon said,
August 29, 2007 at 8:40 am
Agree its better for kids to escape the clutches of their mothers asap, but does the irish geography suit this, if a third to a half of the irish population live in the greater dublin area they are hardly going to want there children to go to one of the weaker provincial colleges or good forbid Cork. So perhaps ireland is really to small and expensive for this.
I have a friend who is living with his mum & dad at 38 yo, he and his parents don’t get on (infact he doesn’t speak to his mum and they schedule their holidays to be apart as much as possible). The parents have offered him several 100k to help him find a place to live, but no interest in taking it, just likes the childhood gaffe. All a bit sad really, being an OAP and having a grumpy son at home.
Brian t, give up engineering and do accountancy, law or teaching. It is a lie that engineering and science jobs are good, the professional bodies work to support their industries and minimise the wages and benefits for employees, pretty much like the IT industry. I saw some article the other day with some business development guy from Tata Consulting Serives complaining that they couldn’t important enough Indian IT guys into the Ireland because of work permit restriction, the same is happening in engineering and science except these guys are coming from eastern europe and spain, so no work permit problems. I wouldn’t be surprised if in 10 years time all engineering design work for the Irish market is being carried out in Mumbai. There is no useful sense an engineering fraternity in Ireland or the UK, bodies like the IEI, ICE, IStructE are effectively employers federations.
tom said,
August 29, 2007 at 9:07 am
Never mind all the stuff about moving out, which idiot taught you not to split the infinitive?
Graham said,
August 29, 2007 at 9:22 am
Sarah,
While I agree that university is really about growing up and becoming an adult, the education is all part of that. I agree that the actual course you do really doesn’t matter all that much, so long as it’s a course you actually like, then all will be fine.
I don’t agree that the only way to really grow up is to move out of home for university. I lived at home for the 4 years of my degree at TCD. Coming from Dublin there just wasn’t the justification to fork out all that money on rent when I was only a bus ride away from college as it was. In saying that, I was certainly not a sponger. I was told in no uncertain terms that while my parents would happily keep me fed (at home at least), they would not fund my drinking habits and social life, so like all of my college friends, I worked a part time job and worked every summer too, either here or away.
Having spent a summer in the US (j1) I was only too eager to move out of home as soon as my degree was finished and that’s exactly what I did. Many of my friends didn’t do this though, and some of them, who have bought their own homes (they refused to ever pay rent for some reason, so lived at home well into their late 20s) still eat dinner made by their mammy every weeknight on their way home from work. It’s pathetic really.
Sarah said,
August 29, 2007 at 9:38 am
On Ben’s point about the secondary education. Look, I acknowledge that they teach you the basics, good at spelling, basics of maths, and reasonable grounding in the other subjects like science, geography etc. But honestly, the longer I spent at college and the more i met people who’d been to those Jesuit schools, the more embarrassed I got at my own ignorance. I was an eager student who loved reading and was given zilch, in fact, negative encouragement to read outside of the prescribed list. I didn’t know what split infinitive even MEANT until I was in university. That’s pathetic.
If it wasn’t on the course, then no one was interested, even if I was. That still bugs me.
tom said,
August 29, 2007 at 10:09 am
“I didn’t know what split infinitive even MEANT until I was in university. That’s pathetic.”
There’s no reason to know what a split infinitive ‘means’ in English.
I would hope that our education system has better things to worry about, if you have an interest in splitting or not splitting infinitives it’s one to follow up in your own time.
Caro said,
August 29, 2007 at 11:17 am
Great post, Sarah. I live in Italy where people have to be crowbarred out of the house at 35 or 40 when they finally decide to get married, and there is a huge incidence of divorce within the first year of marriage which I’m firmly convinced is due to neither spouse having the faintest idea about the responsibilities involved in running a house, managing money or solving their own problems.
Not wishing to be pedantic, but the split infinitive is now considered acceptable English grammar
Sarah said,
August 29, 2007 at 11:48 am
Tom, you’re being silly. Split infinitives if you want, but knowing the grammatical rules of your own language isn’t asking too much of the educational system.
On the substantive issue, I like Fowler’s description of the five classes of people: those who don’t know and don’t care, those who don’t know and do care, those who know and approve, those who know and condemn, and those who know and discriminate.
I’m in the “know and condemn” gang, but I wouldn’t argue too strongly with the discriminating kind. But the don’t know, don’t cares? I think anyone who writes for their work shouldn’t be proud of belonging to that category.
tom said,
August 29, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Anyone who “writes for their work” is probably in the wrong job.
Tomaltach said,
August 29, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Keep it up Tom, you’re looking good for the Most Valuable Contribution award.
Paul Newton said,
August 29, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Hey I got an A in honours English (I admit it was 24 years ago) and I have no idea what a split infinitive is?
Will you let me know? Should I google it? Does it matter?
Gerry said,
August 29, 2007 at 6:34 pm
They clearly taught you about splitting hairs in your minor public school Tom. As one of those Jesuit boys that Sarah met in college can I say that this is the best article you’ve ever written. Or you’ve written ever as you would prefer .
Kevin said,
August 30, 2007 at 11:29 pm
I don’t think any student looks with a reluctant or fearing eye at the issue of moving out. As far as I can tell, everyone’s up for it, but nobody has the financial resources unless they crawl back to mother and father, which surely defeats the purpose – or your stated purpose, in any case. I’m trying to move out at the moment (an unrushed search since I’m half-living in town already, as, fortunately enough, my girlfriend lives off Harcourt St.), but it’s hard finding, first of all, a part-time job that will give hours sufficient to earn 200 euro a week on minimun wage, and secondly, renting in Dublin demands at least 600 euro a month. In the most practical of ideal circumstances, that means a student has 200 euro a month after rent to spend on, amongst other things, books, food and electricty. Summer jobs, you scream, and I suppose you’re right, but I forgot to do that this year, and even if I had, jobs abroad pay just enough to accomodate, well, summer accomodation. I agree with the person who mentioned summers abroad as a time for growth in question. To boldly go (lacking subtlety?) abroad proves a shrewd move in shaping one as a person – and learning just-what-your-friends-are.
TCD have the Scholars’ Exams, which are really quite incredible, but it’s by no means not easy. And studying enough to get Scholls defeats the thesis about college being less about academics than personal growth.
Pete said,
August 31, 2007 at 10:54 am
I throughly agree that going to a college far from home, so that you are forced to move out of home and grow up, is an excellent idea in theory. I stayed at home when I was a student, and did indeed end up as a 21-year-old child. Fortunately, 1980’s Ireland came to my rescue – high unemployment, expensive phone calls and no Ryanair meant that I had to go abroad and build a life there, forgetting Ireland even existed until the annual Christmas trip home. I even did another degree abroad, paying for myself, but I don’t think I’ve ever really caught up on those 4 years of growing up that I missed out on.
However, I really do believe that moving out is more difficult than it used to be:
1. The “going abroad in the summer to earn money” option no longer makes sense. We used to go to high-wage countries where doing lowly work paid enough to see us through the year in low-wage Ireland. Now, Ireland is that high-wage country, so it makes more sense to work here in the summers, but it still doesn’t pay enough to save much, unless you’re living rent-free at home (catch-22?).
2. Rents have risen hugely in real terms, and thanks to the rate of property development and renovation, the overcrowded, cold, damp, smelly, structurally-unsound places that students used to be able to afford don’t seem to exist any more.
3. Part-time working eats into study time. It’s too easy for students to become focussed on the short-term pressures (working extra hours to pay the rent & bills) and let the important long-term stuff (study) slip. I certainly couldn’t have done a job and got a degree at the same time – maybe other people are more disciplined than me?
4. Student loans are an investment in your degree, and you depend on the degree boosting your earnings enough to pay it back and produce a good return on the investment. So, if you have a student loan, it DOES matter what degree course you study, and how well you do in it. Borrowing to leave home and study something that you’re interested in but will never earn a penny from is a luxury few can afford.
So, I do think it’s harder to move out of home than it used to be, although I admit that the students unrealistic expectations don’t help. Try suggesting to them that it’s possible to live without central heating, credit cards, mobile phones, brand-new clothes and (in many cases) a car, and the reaction is not good.
Sarah said,
August 31, 2007 at 8:57 pm
oh look I know that’s all true. It must cost a bloody fortune these days. The only thing is – the rural student has no choice and just has to get on with it. The urban student has the cushion.
leon said,
September 3, 2007 at 8:45 am
Of course its the poor old salt of the earth country folk catching the flack again, whilst the louche urbanites lazy around with everything falling in their laps.
Perhaps the ruralists should receive a general grant for being the real beating heart of ireland, in addition to REPS, CAP, decentralisation, disproportional health and education spending per capita, etc, etc, to cap it all the world price of wheat and milk products is rising, wheat has doubled in the last 12 months,
As weelington said, just because your born in a barn is doesn’t mean you’re a horse. But, to escape and then later return, pure madness.
sean said,
September 7, 2007 at 9:02 am
Mmmm, Sarah — Ironic article that you end up home yourself, building a pad in your parents backyard.
Not saying i disagree with it, just find your article ironic
Sarah said,
September 7, 2007 at 10:50 am
Trust me, that thought crossed my mind more than once. Years spent fighting to get out and then I come crawling back with my babies
Still since I have run my own homes in the intervening period I am a model of consideration and obligation
Paul said,
September 10, 2007 at 11:20 am
Honest as always Sarah.. That’s why we love this blog, fair play!