04.25.07
Our failure to listen
Starting a new post since we wandered about on the previous one which ended with Paul suggesting I read his post on the matter and I’m glad I did.
I really like this bit:
“5. Can we hear the scream and help?
Yes i believe we can if we choose to, I feel we have lost the art of listening, the skills of listening to understand. We have no time to listen, and sometimes by listening to others we may have to confront the pain in ourselves. There is just not enough emphasis on listening, it’s not a panacea to solve all ills, but so many people wade through life feeling that nobody understands who they really are. I’m not talking about therapy here, although increased access to therapy would be a wonderful thing, i’m talking about friendship, and how we as friends can help to cut through the BS position of “everything’s wonderful” and “sure I’m as happy as Larry”.
6. Can we drop the illusion?
I’m not sure, i think it may be too powerfully ingrained, the connection that “if i’m not wonderfully happy, then i’m inadaquate and there’s something wrong with me and i better hide it” is very deeply entrenched.
There are too many guru’s, too many vested interests. I think the best we can do is develop the ability to listen to and support people and let them know just because they feel unhappy does not make them unique, does not make them inadaquate, does not make them failures…… IT JUST MAKES THEM HUMAN!”
Then Stephen responded
“Why is the pursuit of happiness such an important concept?”
I think that is THE question at the center of a lot of our dissappointment in life which you have articulated so well. To me the most important thing is the pursuit of meaning. [my emphasis] And whether your answer is found in a particular faith or philosophy of life it is essential that one can see some direction/purpose to it all – or at least be able to ask the questions in the hope that somewhere there are answers which we may just glimpse. If I can do that I am happy but that happiness is not an end in itself. Life is fascinating and mysterious – It is when we think there is nothing of lasting significance and value that it gets scary. I too find it hard to imagine the psyche of a suicidal person but I can only guess that a part of it may be a feeling that fear of meaninglessness.
I think the meaning issue is important. If faith gives people that meaning, great. Usually children give people that meaning. Or at least, a reason to stay alive and get up in the morning.
The only other thing I’d say is that I can see the logic of their (the Dunne’s) decision. In one way if you decide that life holds nothing for you, taking the children with you is perfectly logical. You won’t see anything for them and you won’t want to leave them behind missing you. You can interpret it into an act of love. The terrible terrible thing is that they (or he) was so unhappy that they or he, got into this way of thinking. And that’s when we need to catch people.
I think we really have an instinct, and I know I do and I consider myself to be a reasonably compassionate person, that when we think that someone is miserable or unhappy, we convince ourselves that its none of our business, we’re afraid to draw trouble into our lives, we think we don’t have the time, afraid we’ll say the wrong thing etc. And I think Paul’s emphasis on listening is sooo important. Sometimes, in fact MOST of the time, that’s all that’s needed – a neutral non-judgmental listener.
omaniblog said,
April 25, 2007 at 9:56 pm
“Sarah and everyone,
It’s taken me a long time, and a lot of energy, to read down through all the posts to arrive here and express something. Paige said I’d need plenty reserve strength, and she was right because this is a draining business and the confidence I have read has caused me to doubt whether I should say anything.
But of one thing I am sure: the next time a couple of young adults and two young children go into an undertaker and make arrangements for their funeral, there will be alarum bells ringing all over the place. Someone said hindsight is not insight, and I know that applies here.
If the adults had gone in without their clothes on, they would have been intercepted and there would have been serious public reaction. But all they did was discuss their deaths, and pay particular care to how their children should be laid out. To me, with hindsight, it is a clear as anything that they were seriously disturbed. I firmly believe that if anyone had asked me what I thought, hypothetically, of any couple doing that, I’d have immediately said they were not fit to be left in charge of two young needy children. But I can’t prove I’m right now. It’s too late.
In my mind, this might have been a cry for recognition, recognition that “we are in trouble…” Certainly, most people in half of their health would have expected some significant reaction to such behaviour. Healthy people under 35 do not plan their funerals, and certainly don’t plan how their children should be laid out.
The undertaker was surely right to phone someone. The Gardai have legal duties and it was, I think, right to contact them quickly.
I see Ireland as a country in transition. There is still some semblance of traditional community. There is certainly in increasing urban-like anomic community: this is a community within which most people don’t know their neighbours, let alone feel they owe them a duty of care. So it is not so strange that this family seems to have kept themselves to themselves, and many locals have spoken of the man doing that. So no one is looking out for others with much experience. People are less and less practised at noticing that something is wrong with others, even those who appear to be holding it together.
People who are so much in trouble that they are thinking of all their funerals are not proud of their distress. They strive to disguise it. Certainly when I was deeply depressed and thinking of how I might kill myself, I did not display this despair openly. I tried to act normally. I held many conversation without my heart being in them. I wanted people to think I was normal. I also yearned for the company of a community within which I could be miserable openly.
I didn’t tell my wife I wanted to be dead. I didn’t let my mother know I was imagining the easiest and least troublesome way to die. I didn’t reach out to my brothers with an open display of desperation. They all knew I was depressed. I didn’t hide that. I kept away from other people so much, and that was so different from my usual way, that I felt I was obviously distressed.
The priest, had he suffered from depression himself? Unless he has experienced severe depression he is unlikely to know how hard it is to keep going over a long time. I know I believe everyone who commits suicide is suffering from depression. This does not mean that everyone who is depressed is going to commit suicide and murder their children. But depression is dangerous and people who go planning their children’s funerals are dangerous.
If the priest was a close friend, he would have gone back himself the following day, if he was worried. So I presume he wasn’t worried and that he was not really close to the family. I bet he wishes he had attended to that family all weekend because he knew there were no statutory services on the horizon.
The garda went off duty and handed over to another member of a complex organisation. No one took a decision that there was a risk here. I find this surprising, so surprising that I suspect that at least one garda felt there was a serious risk but didn’t feel empowered to take effective action. Easier to avoid individual responsibility within a collective bureaucracy. If this is so, there is a organisational culture issue and this analysis fits with other stories I’ve heard.
I also think it would be good to ‘get real’ about the health system. Everyone knows that mental health is the cinderella of the whole system. We all know there is no after hours service. We know there is no pro-active service looking out for troubled individuals and families. We know that children are in their parents care and that troubled families mean above all vulnerable children. This is a risk we have been prepared to tolerate.
Politicians respond to pressure. They want to be elected. It is because there has been so little pressure on politicians that there is so little service for people with mental health issues and their carers/supporters. The rate of change is so slow that it will be generations before there is a step change in the level of safety for people living with depression. This I believe.
We, the needy voters will have to take much more dramatic action to change the situation than we have ever taken.
But social change is not easy. There are competing demands and politicians and civil servants are the agents that we have to broker overall changes in social priorities.
Anger is healthy. To be understanding in the face of such a disgraceful and tragic event would be less than human. At least there is life where there is indignation and if the majority are casting round looking for a target to stone, this is a sign that there has been violence against a core human value.
Irish systems run by Irish people on behalf of Irish people and their children have failed this time. Will this blow over? I favour an inquiry for fear that this will be replaced by another headline grabber.
I’m sure I haven’t expressed exactly what I wanted to say, but at least I’ve given it a decent shot. Thank you Sarah for being here.
ben said,
April 25, 2007 at 10:03 pm
I don’t see this as being a societal failure or something that we need to blame ourselves collectively for or agonize about. The undertaker was, rightfully, concerned, and he called the Gardai, as was appropriate.
Paul Newton said,
April 25, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Ben, if the only things we reward politicians for are lowering taxes, keeping stamp duty down and managing to keep the westies out of our cosy middle class estates, are you really surprised that we don’t have a Dail full of empathetic individuals with the needs of the vunerable and disadvantaged at heart?
This is a societal issue….. and we certainly should agonise as a society about how we treat the sick, the poor, the vunerable and those without hope.
Adrian said,
April 26, 2007 at 12:10 am
This is certainly a societal failure.
How have we created a society where we allow such a horrifying event to occur?
Here were two members of our society, who terminated their lives and that of their childern because they decided that there was nothing left to live for in the Ireland of today. It was us who have developed this society.
We should have a developed a society with the necessary services, so that all members of that family were able to fully participitate in the community. Whereby it be it in education, social care, health or just simply a job. To give the family hope.
In the Ireland of today we have stopped listening. This is because today, for the most part people only communicate and interact with their social class. For example, we send kids to gael schools, private schools and then to university. During that whole period, a child may never interact with lower socio economic classes. Never become aware of their perspective and of how other families live.
And thus, we continue to vote for lower income taxes, more private weath and a society where were two members of our society, terminated their lives and that of their childern because they decided that there was nothing left to live for. Because must people are unaware of the toils and stuggles of other members of our society. They think everyone goes to schools where everyone goes to university.
omaniblog said,
April 26, 2007 at 8:15 am
Adrian,
I recently returned to live in Ireland after 30 years in UK. Your words make uncomfortable reading, as they are meant to be. Thank you for expressing your anger at the way things are going. I think it would be good to cultivate a social climate of dissatisfaction and disgruntlement around the status quo, in order to make it easier for people to question and be more demanding of their public representatives.
“When is the last time you sat down and ate a meal with someone very different from yourself?” – that question comes to me as a result of your comment. It’s not aimed at you, but offered to all as a bit of a challenge.
ben said,
April 26, 2007 at 8:30 am
No. We did not “stop listening”, and spare us the melodramatic hand-wringing, Adrian, you can’t seriously think that income tax rates and a lack of interaction between socioeconomic classes caused these deaths, although I congratulate you for staying awake during a Sociology lecture once. This is not a failure of the Irish people, it is not a collective failure, it is not a product of modern life or the status quo or modern society, or the fault of video games or text messages or Bebo, it is not something to beat yourself up over. It is not a philosophical issue or a cause for introspection.
The Wexford Gardai failed to do their job. That’s it. That’s all there is.
The Plain People of Ireland are not responsible.
Mark Waters said,
April 26, 2007 at 9:38 am
The Wexford Gardai failed to do their job. That’s it. That’s all there is
I think that’s debatable. The two options given to them by the HSE weren’t going to help the situation much either. For me that’s where the broader responsibility comes into it. As a society what kind of services do we want to provide to those in need of help. If omaniblog’s informative and insightful post tells us anything it’s that dealing with mental illness is a minefield and requires alot more nuanced approach than simply invoking section 12.
I am not comfortable living in a society where we can so easily abdicate our responsibilities to those who need our help. I thought I was being melodramatic when I wrote this. Now I’m not so sure.
Justin said,
April 26, 2007 at 9:42 am
We have to face up the reality that, even if Ireland were to be a perfect society (full of people eating dinner with different people or whatever), there will still be people so horrifically depressed as to consider murdering their families and themselves.
There needs to be a safety net to catch and stop those people from committing such an act. Various state agencies (particularly the guards and the health system) are key components of this safety net, and need to be reliable regardless of how touchy-feely the rest of us are.
Isabel O'D said,
April 26, 2007 at 10:06 am
There were obviously a number of factors at play here, and a number of complexities, in particular that with increased mobility the nuclear family rather than the community becomes the most important ‘unit’ in terms of agency, values and so on – the Dunnes had not lived in the area long, and don’t seem to have been well known. Clearly as well as physical infrastructure such as transport, sewage etc lagging behind housing construction, there has been a lack of social planning and in the transition from a more community-based dependency (including informal authority figures such as the priest) to a more planned one (where professional bodies such as the HSE have responsibilities at all times) there is currently a major gap.
That said, and I’m sure its just what others have been saying, I am shocked the gardai didn’t do more. Planning the funeral of their children to the degree that an undertaker was alarmed might have been a classic ‘cry for help’ but it was also a signal that a criminal act was being planned – i.e. murder. While state agencies are obviously sensitive to charges of over-intervention in family life, the gardai should have had the father in for questioning at the very least. Gardai are supposedly trained in interpersonal skills ad if a social worker was not available they should have stepped in.
gerry said,
April 26, 2007 at 10:18 am
well irish society hasn’t lost the ability to don the sack cloth and ashes. this guy was mentally ill. he was not acting rationaly or logically. HE WAS ILL. this was not a rational response to societal breakdown. he wasn’t an isolated member of the urban sprawl. he lived in a small community. who saw his kids playing on saturday.
i am glad I can finally break bread with ben on this, the only failure was an inability to respond to what were very unusual and stark circumstances due to the cops making a wrong all and the hse being willfully unavaialable. i guarante from the reaction of the undertaker that this is probaly the only time ever someone of that age has come to an undertaker to discuss their funereal arrangements. the undertaker acted appropriately, in a socailly inclusive way. as did the priest but he made a wrong call.
tying this back to voting priorities, sheesh. Grow up.
Isabel O'D said,
April 26, 2007 at 10:41 am
To clarify – I am not making any direct point about voting priorities, just on aspects of planning that mightn’t be considered due to the focus on physical infrastructure. And its not about the party politics of it, just maybe a more considered approach to development for which ultimately everyone has responsibility. Consideration of the social and cultural impact of lack of deep planning is not about sociology lecturers or abstract, theoretical concepts, its pretty basic stuff. And whether or not this happened in ‘urban sprawl’ or a cul de sac by a village, the lack of planning here is to do with professional social agencies who take responsibility for people’s welfare.
While the man might have been ill he was also planning to kill people, this was suggested through planning their funerals, and he should have been stopped. Just because he was mentally ill did not give him the right of life and death over his family. That his wife’s family have released statements about how they had informed gardai of their concerns just shows how badly they messed up.
Anyway, while this may not be about voting priorities, it is of course deeply political in a fundamental sense and its a bit silly to use this important discussion to fire off puerile insults.
gerry said,
April 26, 2007 at 4:13 pm
i didn’t find your insults puerile, you’re too hard on yourself. of course being mentally ill confers no rights, only a psychopath would believe that. i was responding to the earlier mail by Paul who seemed to think that the father’s response was logical and and an inevitable response to societal breakdown. but he was ill and therefore divergent, unpredictable and more people will get ill and more of them will kill their families. It’s always happened. what we can do is when someone gives a huge clue/cry for help and goes to funeral home to make arrangements that there is a mechanism in place to do this and not a closed for the weekend sign.
where we diverge is in my not wanting to hand over all my money for the government to hand it to the unions and for nothing to change. I would continue to vote for lower taxes rather then give it to a systemically inept public sector. if they managed to sort these things out on their own without ministerial intervention and a begging bowl then i might be persuaded otherwise. right now it would be taking the same action and expecting a different result. that way lies madness.
oh and if you want to meet a wider range of the social spectrum, go to your local, you’d be amazed who you meet.
Paul Newton said,
April 26, 2007 at 5:02 pm
i was responding to the earlier mail by Paul who seemed to think that the father’s response was logical and and an inevitable response to societal breakdown.
WHAT?
have you gone mad Ted?
Isabel O'D said,
April 26, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Does it not seem that ministerial intervention or some kind of overhaul is needed? I don’t know about the details about the HSE and unions etc but surely it can’t be that hard to have someone on call? Can’t it be treated like a medical system? Can anyone enlight? Sorry for my ignorance.
gerry said,
April 26, 2007 at 8:23 pm
sorry paul it was adrian i was taking issue with. and isobel i think we are all wondering why this seemingly simple enough change can’t happen or hasn’t happened. it appears HSE and or union intransigence is to blame. Sarah thinks letting FG at the them will sort it out. GORDON DAVIES thinks we should hand all our money over. I despair.
CG said,
April 26, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Well I’m not so sure that our society is in meltdown and neither am I sure that this demonstrates a failure to listen on our collective parts.
I mean, the undertaker DID listen, he DID realise all was not well. The gardai realised too. The priest realised too. But noone expects anything this awful to happen to people they know and they just spoke to, and the qualified organisation that’s supposed to offer support in these circumstances wasn’t available because it was the WEEKEND. That was the problem. That’s where the failure was.
And I have also recently lived in England and I can tell you that statements like “we send kids to gael schools, private schools and then to university. During that whole period, a child may never interact with lower socio economic classes.” are complete feckin nonsense. We have nothing like the social apartheid that exists in the English school system. Private schools are decreasing in number in Ireland, and where they do exist they’re usually just secondary schools ie everyone has been to their local primary. Get a grip.
In my experience there’s a lot less snobbery (reverse and otherwise) too.
omaniblog said,
April 26, 2007 at 11:10 pm
Returning to the theme that sparked Sarah down this thread:
“I feel we have lost the art of listening, the skills of listening to understand. We have no time to listen, and sometimes by listening to others we may have to confront the pain in ourselves. There is just not enough emphasis on listening, it’s not a panacea to solve all ills, but so many people wade through life feeling that nobody understands who they really are…”
I got a booklet from the HSE with yesterday’s post, entitled “Parents who listen, protect”. Subtitled: “A handbook on building good communication in families and communities. Published by the HSE as part of a national initiative on child protection”
I see thanks and acknowledgments to ten HSE staff, including Derek Chambers, National Office for Suicide Prevention, HSE.
Let me quote a little:
“If you know someone who you think might be thinking of suicide, show you care by offering support, for example say something like: ‘I’m worried about you and I want to help.’
“Don’t shy away from the subject, if you are concerned that someone is actually suicidal find out by asking them if they have plans to harm themselves.
“Get help or encourage them to get help, for example by saying ‘I will stay with you until you can get help.’ There are a wide range of supports and services that can help in a crisis, including:
The local GP or family doctor;
GP out-of-hours co-operative services;
Accicent and emergency departments of general hospitals;
Voluntary support services such as Samaritans and Aware.”
The introduction says:
“… In any family and community, it is important that adults and children listen to each other and talk to each other daily. Children rely on adults in their life to guide, teach and protect them…”
I was very surprised to get this booklet. It seemed to come without warning. Among general election bumph, it might easily have been thrown into the recycling with a moment’s consideration.
As a production, I admire it. However, I worry that someone in the HSE has now ticked the box and moved on to another project. Investment made for what return?
I wonder will there be some follow-up monitoring to find out what % of recipients benefited from the booklet?
If only someone had stayed in the house with that family over the whole weekend…
If only someone had said “I will stay with you until you can get help”…
It’s easy to be nostalgic for a golden age, a time when there was a ‘real’ sense of community, an era when people minded their neighbour’s business…
However, we can only live in the present, and, hopefully, the future.
I still think this will be brushed under the carpet by the authorities, politicians and the wider Irish public. Only a small number of cranky people will fight on, complaining about the need for decent mental health services. Howling for services that reach out into the wider community, searching for people in trouble and being with them at their hour of need.
The impulse to kill yourself, your spouse and your children is temporary and passes. Depression lifts and dissipates. Almost everyone who experiences depression survives the experience and lives on.
Many of the many survivors of depression never stop hating the pain they went through, and what it did to their loved ones. But also emerge better people than they have ever been before: more aware of themselves, their needs, the needs of others – and committed to help people through the hard job of understanding what depression is like and how they can make the community a fitter place for everyone.
We should all welcome those who speak out about their experience of depression because hearing the voice of a survivor gives courage to those who are suffering right now.
I know. I was in the pain of depression and I was helped to remember that I would come out of it. I am grateful to every voice, however weak, that speak up about what depression is really like and how you can get to the other side.
Adrian said,
April 27, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Gerry said “but he was ill and therefore divergent, unpredictable and more people will get ill and more of them will kill their families.”. Yes, this is true and from reading the above comments perhaps it is true that it not the fault of society.
But it is true that, this incident is just more evidence of of people falling through the cracks or perhaps chams that exist in our social services. The system failed them.
In response to “When is the last time you sat down and ate a meal with someone very different from yourself?” Yes, this is true I have not done so in the recent past. But at present I am student in college in Ireland. Two years ago, I attended a public secondary school. In that secondary school, there were people who could not read a science book due to poor literacy skills. Yet, the energy of all these people from all these different backgrounds was amazing. I have not experienced such since.
But, in college. We are all the same. All live in the suburbs. Same middle class back ground. We all went on j1s last summer. None of that amazing use of language or wit. Where are all the other socio economic classes?
“We have nothing like the social apartheid that exists in the English school system. Private schools are decreasing in number in Ireland”. This is not true. In Dublin, most students who attend universities are from private secondary schools. And also in the south side of Dublin the numbers in public secondary school has dropped because now parents send their kids to private schools.
While places in gael scoils are scarse throughout the country. Because kids want to keep their kids away from the “undesirables”.
Once more, I will return to the title “our failure to listen”. We dont listen because we do not even know what exists.
omaniblog said,
April 29, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Adrian,
I feel encouraged by your energetic complaint about the lack of social diversity in Irish universities. I agree with you that a mix of classes makes for a vibrant and interesting learning atmosphere. I wish you’d said more about the “amazing use of language or wit.”
Leon said,
April 29, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Adrian don’t really agree with you about gaelscoileanna. That whole myth has arisen from the fact that gaelscoileanna in Sandycove and Ranelagh are full of the offspring of the rich.
The real apartheid attempt is ‘educate together’ it really means ‘educate apart’ in the north it is laudable; in the south what does it mean ‘educate together’ with who. Not working class kids that’s for sure.
If you can’t afford to send your kid to a private school don’t demand that I pay for middle class only social ghetto apartheid schools. They get such an easy ride from the media but it is meaningless ‘educate together’ with other people who put their kids name 4 years ago, wink wink nod nod.
And on the Dunnes if Ciara Dunne made exhaustive proscriptions for her final rest why do her family feel that her wishes do not matter. They say that she was easily led; maybe they led her easily or not. She wanted to be buried in Boolavogue her family did not listen – in death as in life?
CG said,
April 30, 2007 at 12:15 am
Yes to not letting gaelscoileanna in Ranelagh colour your views on the rest of them.
Newsflash Adrian: south county Dublin is NOT a handy microcosm of the country as a whole. And I’m right about private schools decreasing in number – especially in south county Dublin (Pembroke school closed last year for example)
But, yeah, whinging about how socially excluded we all are makes one sound so much more cynical and world weary and sophisticated. So keep that up.
CG said,
April 30, 2007 at 12:27 am
Actually Adrian that nonsense you spouted about your secondary school has really got my goat. So you attended a wonderful place full of diverse teenagers bursting with energy and thrilling with the joy of social difference?
But you just said you’re middle class and live in the suburbs. So, em, where exactly was this fantastic school that drew from people of no doubt wildly diverse backgrounds? Must have taken everyone AGES to get there from all over the country.
But, wait, there IS such a thing as an educational institution that takes students from all over Ireland and beyond and mixes them together. Em, it’s called college. And, actually, the majority of the people who attend with you (presuming you’re not at a local technical college – in which case, you wouldn’t be complaining about the lack of people from non-traditional college backgrounds) DON’T live at home with mammy and daddy in the suburbs. They, er, LEFT HOME to go to university because they are ADULTS. The phenomenon of college students living at home is pretty much unique to you and your fellow suburbanites. Guess what? You’re not in the majority. You could meet up with people from all over Ireland very easily at your college – you don’t because you’ve fallen into a very Dublin (though it happens in the other cities too) pattern of sticking with the friends and acquaintences you already knew and haven’t WANTED to challenge yourself or broaden your horizons. That’s fine, that’s not a crime. Best of luck to you and I hope you enjoy your university career. But don’t whinge that society is stopping you from meeting people you are different to you – you are doing that all on your own.
‘Everyone I know went on J1s last summer’. Come off it.
Justin said,
April 30, 2007 at 9:56 am
‘But, in college. We are all the same. All live in the suburbs. Same middle class back ground. We all went on j1s last summer. None of that amazing use of language or wit. Where are all the other socio economic classes?’
Dunno what college you’re at, but when I was in college, there were plenty of people from across all the socio-economic strata — they were the science students. Arts was still a pretty middle-class enclave, though. Maybe you need to broaden your horizons to include some friends from other departments?