04.23.07
HSE Social Workers in the shit
The consequences of a terrible service at the best of times and none at the weekend has struck again….
From ireland.com
“The bodies of four people, including two young children, have been found in a house in Co Wexford.
The discovery was made in a house at Moine Rua, Monageer, near Enniscorthy, at 2pm, according to a statement released by the Garda Press Office.
The man and woman, aged in their 20s, and two girls aged two and four are believed to be from the same family.
When gardaà arrived, they had a quick look at the house, didn’t like what they saw and eventually effected a forcible entry through the rear door and made the tragic discovery of four bodies inside
Supt Kevin Donohoe, Garda press office A Garda spokeswoman said the scene had been sealed off and the State Pathologist’s office informed.
The Health Service Executive confirmed this evening that community services had been contacted by gardaà in relation to a family in the area in recent days.
In a statement, the HSE South said the childcare manager of Wexford Community Services was contacted last Saturday afternoon by gardaÃ.
“The childcare manager reminded the gardaà of the out-of-hours services: that is Caredoc for medical concerns and Section 12 of the Childcare Act 1991 for children at risk – which allows the gardai to remove a child to a place of safety, which in Wexford would be Wexford General Hospital,” the statement concluded.
A local priest confirmed there had been concerns about the family, which were sufficient for him to call to the house in recent days.
Although he declined to go into details, the priest said he spoke with the family for about two hours last Friday and left at about 10.30pm.
The priest said the gardaà had been contacted in relation to the family.
Speaking on RTÉ’s Six One news, Supt Kevin Donohoe of the Garda press office agreed it was now “obvious” the family had been one at risk.
“On Friday we became aware of some information that caused us some concerns in relation to the family and we spoke to a priest and asked him to come out and have a chat with them. He did that…on Friday evening,” Supt Donohoe said.
“On Saturday, the local superintendent Peter Finn decided that he should contact the HSE. He did that, he contacted the HSE official and passed on the information that we had in respect of the family.
“They undertook to have a look at the case and, indeed, that official said he would speak to another official in respect of it.
“And this morning, Monday, we spoke again to the HSE and arranged to meet them out here at the family home. When gardaà arrived, they had a quick look at the house, didn’t like what they saw and eventually effected a forcible entry through the rear door and made the tragic discovery of four bodies inside.”
Looks like the cops rang the social workers who said either call a doctor or forcibly take the children. Presuming the former was not enough and the latter was over the top, they were told to wait til Monday. Nice one for the bureaucrats. All they were left with was the priest who did his best. Awful story.
ben said,
April 23, 2007 at 9:36 pm
The Gardaà are concerned about people’s safety so … they call a PRIEST and ask him to intercede? The Gardaà … I … they …. a priest… they … WHAT? WHAT THE HELL?
I would have thought that if the Gardaà are concerned that several people, including young children, are in danger, the obligation is on THEM to act, immediately, not send Father Dougal over. Bloody hell.
lauranen said,
April 23, 2007 at 10:01 pm
This is such a sad story. I can’t believe that happened again. I foresee a line of heated debates in the media, but in the end no-one will take responsibility for the incident and the fact that they missed a chance to save this family.
Referring to a dated procedure instead of looking at every case individually is just cowardly and lazy. This is the sort of stuff that should get the childcare manager fired, no questions asked, but without a doubt the HSE will be hiding behind the comfortably covering veil of bureaucracy.
blankpaige said,
April 23, 2007 at 11:18 pm
I agree Sarah this is a truly tragic story. I’m not that interested in who was at fault – with hindsight I’m sure folk would have acted differently. I imagine that each of the parties involve – Gardai, Priest, Social Workers – tried to do their best.
It is truly tragic that as a society we can fail each other and then blame some face-less organisation with a three letter acronym.
I fear a public enquiry, pages of Irish Times opinion pieces, a PrimeTime special and several years later the same thing happening again.
Paige
ben said,
April 24, 2007 at 2:22 am
The Gardaà emphatically did NOT do their best. They knew that a young family was in danger, and their response was to call a priest. This would be pathetically comic if there weren’t four fresh corpses. The Gardaà are fully, 100% at fault. They knew that children were at risk and the best they could do was call a bloody priest? Come on. When people are in jeopardy and the Gardaà know about it, they have more than a responsibility and more than a duty to act. Instead they called the HSE, got the answering machine, and then called Craggy Island Parochial House. Contemptible. Sickening.
Every Garda in the country should be ashamed to wear the uniform right now.
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 7:11 am
I hit the same sentence as Ben, with the same reaction. What the FUCK is wrong with this country?
(And actually Ben, its worse than you say. The Gardai thought something was wrong on Friday, and instead of calling the HSE – when it was OPEN – they sent in Father Dougal. Which meant they didnt call the HSE until the next day, when it was closed.)
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 7:55 am
No way Ben.They called the HSE who sent them off with a flea in their ear telling them to call a doctor or take the children – which I imagine they were hesitant to do in case it escalated the situation. They need a professional pyschologist and the state refused to provide one. They turned to the only other person they thought could help – the priest. In a small town in rural Ireland the priest might be the only person with any kind of pastoral experience. I don’t blame them at all and its not fair to insult the priest who tried to help when the State social services refused.
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 8:13 am
No, Sarah. They called the priest FIRST. It wasn’t until Saturday that they contacted the HSE.
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 8:26 am
We’re both right. The HSE spokeswoman was on Morning Ireland earlier and said they had a meeting on Friday on foot of the alert raised by the undertaker and the Gardai. The HSE said they were not concerned about the family at that point. Then the guards called the priest. Then they called the HSE back on Saturday and were told to wait until Monday.
Point is you had local gardai trying to help and a HSE who weren’t interested. I would not blame the gardai at all for roping in the priest nor the priest for trying. Who else was there?
Stephen Neill said,
April 24, 2007 at 8:42 am
Yes the Gardai are probably beating themselves up about this – yes the priests involved are probably wondering “could I have done something to prevent this horrible thing” but ultimately what we have here is yet another manifestation of an increasingly incompetent HSE and an increasingly alienated and angered workforce within the HSE. I think the action of the nurses in recent weeks has been tantamount to reckless endangerment, the attitude of the consultants to change has been arrogant and certainly appears self-serving but at the root of it all is a sick and confused animal called the HSE. It didn’t work when it existed in its disparate health board format and now in its enforced ‘Unity’ it is actively imploding in on itself. The Dunne family are what we callously call ‘collatoral damage”. And of course – those who are left to pick up the pieces are an easy target for our condemnation.
Mark Waters said,
April 24, 2007 at 9:16 am
Sarah, the HSE spokesperson said that they had been in contact with the family as part of a routine health issue. It was nothing to do with this and they didn’t notice anything suspect. (As an aside, the cold bureaucratic, Newspeak style that the spokesperson had to adopt is a shocking sign of what’s become of the health service, swamped in legalistic, managerial-speak mumbo-jumbo).
As far as I can see the people on the ground did the best they could in the circumstances. The big issue is why is there no weekend cover? Weekend cover would probably have saved Sharon Grace and her family and may have saved this family too.
Any chance of some auction politics on how we can provide better community health care? All this talk of stamp duty and income tax cuts is disgusting. We are gleefully dismantling our society for the sake of a few euro in our pockets.
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 9:32 am
when the fundamentalist liberals get past blaming a well meaning rural community, can we all agree that this is a political issue?
The same thing happened with Sharon Grace two years ago. Showed up out of hours with her children and no social worker. She killed herself and the children. What has changed in the meantime? Nothing except the hiring of more bureaucrats to turn the health boards into the HSE and millions of euro flushed down the toilet.This government is a disgrace. They tie themselves up in knots firing money and never firing administrators. They deny basic services to the most vulnerable of people. If they are re-elected I give up all hope. It means the people of Ireland don’t give a shit about anything except themselves.
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 9:35 am
I am confused about that point so Ray could be more right than I am. Why would there be a routine issue? The point is they were told in time and did nothing and I refuse to get involved in blaming the priest or the guards. They were trying. The HSE was not. That HSE woman was reading from a statement. It was appalling.
Stephen Neill said,
April 24, 2007 at 9:55 am
What is happening in the HSE is like a ‘Cancer’ and like all cancers its spreads and mutates, destroying the surrounding healthy tissue. I would liken what has happened to some of the good and caring people involved in delivery of service to a previously healthy tissue destroyed by a cancer. I honestly believe that we have now got an unviable organism in the HSE! How you deal with that bearing in mind the various and seemingly incompatible interest groups is a huge challenge that no sane politician will relish taking on. But they have to and we will have to give them a mandate! Obviously you cannot change it all overnight , beraing in mind we are dealing with the biggest employer in the State, so whatever is done will have to be done in stages and perhaps ironically in specific geographical locations. Perhaps it is a case of a renewed local health board model (without the potential for party political manipulation) but whatever the answer, no amount of money can recussitate the Leviathan that is HSE inc! With no intention to make light of this situation, the following comes to mind:
‘E’s not pinin’! ‘E’s passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! ‘E’s expired and gone to meet ‘is maker! ‘E’s a stiff! Bereft of life, ‘e
rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed ‘im to the perch ‘e’d be pushing up the daisies! ‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory! ‘E’s off the twig! ‘E’s kicked the bucket, ‘e’s shuffled off ‘is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 10:15 am
http://www.eveningecho.ie/news/bstory.asp?j=217230552&p=zy7z3yz58&n=217231312
“As recently as Friday, midday last, we had contact with the entire family through our public health nursing service for developmental checks for the children, and after the meeting and during the course of that meeting we had no concerns at all regarding the family,”
The HSE contact on Friday was the public health nurse calling round to see the kids. The gardai didn’t contact the HSE until Saturday.
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 10:34 am
(That doesn’t let the HSE off the hook, off course – they should have some sort of weekend service. If the gardai had only been alerted on Saturday, they wouldn’t have been able to call in the HSE if they’d wanted to. But they were alerted on Friday, and instead of calling the HSE, they called a fucking priest.)
Gordon Davies said,
April 24, 2007 at 10:36 am
So just how much are YOU prepared to pay in extra taxes to fund a decent social service, mental health and general health service in this country. We know that a properly funded health and social services system willl cost about 10% of GNP. This can be funded in an inequitable and inefficient way by private health insurance (the Boston model) which leaves vast swaths of the population unprovided for. Or it can be funded out of taxes/social contributions which can, if correctly managed, provide an equitable and efficient service to the whole population (the Berlin model).
The PD led government propose to take us to Boston…which means that such tragic cases as we have seen here will not only multiply there are actually designed into the sysem (no money, no service). Is that what we want. Labour (followed somewhat timidly by FG) want to set up an universal health insurance system inspired by the Berlin model. Everyone, including the super rich tax avoiders,contribute what they can and the service is the same for all. You will have a chance to vote soon. It’s your choice.
Gordon DAVIES
Gerry said,
April 24, 2007 at 10:41 am
it’s amazing; mention the police and priests and it seems people have found their men. Here’s what I don’t get, the HSE call on Friday and see nothing wrong 24 hours before a guy kills his entire family. not a great spot.
the guards get a call from an undertaker and, tactfully in my opinion, send a priest rather than going in mob handed. The priest apparently say all is fine. Why then is the cop still concerned? seems to me he is going out of his way here. surely he must know the local relevant HSE person. Can we assume here that they refused to go? If I get an emergency in work over the weekend I go in and it’s not like if I didn’t someone is going to end up dead. This is incredible.
ok, in retrospect the guards might have been a bit more intrusive but they can’t have known the urgency. monday might have been ok. But how many calls can the HSE get on a Saturday from a guard talking about a guy buying burial plots for his family? worth getting in the car I would have thought. Does anyone have the decency to resign anymore?
Colman said,
April 24, 2007 at 11:17 am
Goddamn, but I wish I had the oracular powers of people here: I’d make a fortune on the stock market and the lottery.
You’ve got Gardaà out of their depth, trying to guess whether the guy is mad enough to justify traumatising the kids by snatching them away from him in the face of a mother who (it would seem) didn’t consider that necessary. What do they do? Call the HSE and get referred to a locum. Call the priest, who does what he can but he’s not a suitably qualified person either, really.
The core problem with the health service is that is consists of vested interests from top to bottom and no-one has the power and the will to tackle it all. Any consolidation is opposed by local politicians and interests, any changes are opposed by unions and consultants and the bureaucracy, like all of them, only has it’s own internal interests in mind.
I don’t blame the unions or local interests for not trusting central politicians or bureaucrats – they’re probably either looking to save money, fund a project they’re interested in in their electoral area or looking for a promotion. Add to that a government for whom the insane US system is a model and I’d be bloody reluctant to go along with them as well.
A real solution would require the articulation of a set of priniciples and damn well sticking to them through hell and high water. Not going to happen in the auction that is Irish electoral politics.
And it’s all the fault of the government, in the long run: let’s not be distracted by the “independent” HSE, which is designed to shield the Minister from the blame for events like this.
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 11:27 am
Ray, “fucking priest” is not fair. These people were trying. They told the HSE what was going on out-of-hours and there was no service. Stop blaming the people who tried to help. Blame the ones who are officially supposed to help and didn’t.
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 11:31 am
and hear hear Gordon. This is a political issue. But you know it wouldn’t even take extra taxes. The money is there. Its just being spent on Brendan Drumm’s PR advisors instead of acute services.
Stephen Neill said,
April 24, 2007 at 11:46 am
Yes Sarah – the money is there and whatever about the PR budget what about the scandelous surplus of administrators who cost a fortune and who insist they are essential because the “system” would not work without them! But of course it is the system or lack of it that is the issue. The computer systems in the hospitals do not even communicate with each other. In one hospital I do occassional chaplaincy cover in there are two people operating incompatible systems side by side which requires double entry of the same data! If it was a business it would have gone under years ago. Maybe the Monty Python crew could use it as the basis for a new film: “Brendan Drumm and the Failing Circus” Mis-directed by Mary Harney. An IRL.GOV production 2007-Eternity or Bust!
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Sarah, it’s” fucking priest”, because the fucking priest was the first person they called. If they’d called the HSE on Friday, when they were first alerted, then the HSE would have been in, and might have been able to do something. It’s shit that the HSE aren’t available on the weekend, but if the gardai hadn’t waited until the weekend, if they hadn’t thought “Hmm, this guy might be contemplating killing himself and his family – I know, let’s call a priest!”, they could have called the HSE.
The ones who are supposed to help and didn’t are both the HSE and the gardai.
(And Gerry, the person from the HSE who was at the house on Friday was a district nurse doing a routine check on the kids’ development. She wasn’t there to interview the father, she might not even have met him.)
Stephen Neill said,
April 24, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Should have called you Ray – No doubt you would have sorted it!
Stephen Neill said,
April 24, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Ray – On reflection a low jibe – apologies – but why insult someone who for all you know did the best with the resources they had (however limited) – The real FUCKERS are the selfish Bastards who could make a difference and don’t for fear of rocking the boat!
Gerry said,
April 24, 2007 at 12:59 pm
why then ray are the hse making a big thing of the fact that they were there on Friday if it appears what they were doing was irrelevant? they seem to be happy to use it as proof of their diligence.
Let’s look at the timeline again; a guard gets a very unusual call from an undertaker. It’s late Friday afternoon, he knows the HSE knock off soon. He can’t really gauge the urgency so thinks, I’ll ask the priest to call round and take a view. He knows the family and believe it or not Ray priests still play an important part in the life of many Irish families and communities. Oh and they don’t knock off at 5. it sounds like excellent community policing to me.
And let’s not forget he doesn’t leave it there. He still makes contact with the HSE the following day – they give him a number to call or the nuclear option of taking away the kids when the appropriate response is form someone to get off their arse and visit the family.
It seems to me that the priests and police erred (and this with hindsight) in guessing the urgency. Only the HSE were negligent.
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Gerry, the timeline as I understand it is
Garda gets call from undertaker, saying a guy whose brother committed suicide recently wants to make funeral arrangements for himself and his family
Garda phones priest – who, as far as I can tell, didn’t really know the family well, just called around before when the family moved in
HSE closes up shop for weekend
Garda superintendent comes in next day, clatters the other guy around the head, and phones the HSE
HSE are basically closed, and say they can’t do anything, the gardai will have to do it themselves
Gardai don’t want to go nuclear, but they don’t even call around to the house over the weekend for a friendly chat and a check
The HSE should be open on the weekend. That’s a political problem, a problem with funding, and I completely agree that it’s a massive failure on the part of the government. (I don’t know how the HSE were negligent – the negligence is in not funding the HSE to be open on the weekend)
The first call the gardai made should have been to the HSE, not to the local priest. That’s a particular case of bad decision-making, complete gombeen mentality where the ‘real’ authority in the town is the parish priest (followed, I suppose, by the school teacher and the TD), not social services and medical authorities.
(And there was another gardai failure on Saturday. When they got the report back from the first priest, they should have at least called around to the house. Ideally, the HSE should have handled the situation, but since that wasn’t happening, the gardai should have taken responsibility, not passed the buck back to the priests)
Paul Newton said,
April 24, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Hi Sarah,
have spent (too much) time on my own blog trying to make some sense out of this, am reading with interest and have a few points to make.
1. I agree with you when you say the local people (guards and priest) tried their best, yes errors of judgement were made but they did their best and I find it hard to blame them.
2. I can’t agree with your “this govt is a disgrace” stance which infers blame on the current administration, i really have no evidence to suggest than any alternative have any better record on health or would do any better job.
3. While blogs represent a fantastic opportunity for reasoned debate, they also present an forum for those with obvious “chips” to have a go…are you listening Ray?
4. Did i just hear an Anglican priest use to expletives in five words?…. Bravo.
5. You can put in all the safety systems and fail safe mechanisms in the world…. and shit will still happen.. this does not mean we should not try to mimimise risk, it means that it is impossible to eliminate it.
Ray said,
April 24, 2007 at 3:26 pm
An obvious chip?
I have no problem with people going to priests for advice, with priests calling on their parishioners when they think they can help with problems, or anything like that. I have a massive problem with a GARDA thinking the right person to call in a situation like this is not a mental health professional, but a fucking priest. The sooner that ring-kissing bollocks disappears from the country, the better – and if that’s a chip it’s one I’m glad to carry.
Paul Newton said,
April 24, 2007 at 3:35 pm
quod erat demonstrandum
Mol said,
April 24, 2007 at 3:58 pm
I have read this blog all day and feel there is one point being over looked. This guy’s brother took his own recently. Why oh why are councillors or mental health professional not sent in to a family when some one takes their own life, regardless of the age, sex, social statues etc. The point I am trying to make is, too often when some one takes their own life an excuse along the lines of, they failed an exam, they were pissed, they had a row with the husband / wife are trotted out. Bollox. People kill themselves because of a deep upset. We need to be getting to the root of the problem, has there been violence inside a home, incest, rape?????? I am not suggesting there was, but lets find out. Two guys of the same family are now dead, one of whom killed his entire family. We need to go back here a few generations and start asking questions.
ben said,
April 24, 2007 at 4:30 pm
I’m with Ray on this one: if people want to have Father Dougal over for tea and a discussion of the status of limbo, fine, but this was a serious issue that required people who were capable of actually doing something.
This man came into town and said “I am going to kill my family and myself”, the Gardaà heard about it, they believed him, and their response was to make a couple of phone calls.
The “nuclear option” was taking the kids away, was it? What option did they get, then?
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Paul – on blaming the government I really stand by that. Sharon Grace, two years ago to the day, walked into Ely Hospital in Wexford in clear distress and asked to see a social worker. It was a Saturday afternoon – none on duty – and she killed herself and her two children a few hours later. At the time there was uproar about the lack of out of hours psychiatric services. There is only one person who can change the system so that resources are put into those emergency services – and that is the Minister for Health.
fatmammycat said,
April 24, 2007 at 4:57 pm
It now appears that the mother in question was fully aware that her children were to die and that she was as much a part of this as he was.
Gerry said,
April 24, 2007 at 5:37 pm
why is it Father Dougal? Why is it a fucking priest? Why is someone who has spent their professional career in pastoral care so woefully underqualified in these circumstances? What is it that is magically taught in Social Work 101 that the clergy has no access to?
Of the clergy I think you have too low an opinion and of mental health professionals too high.
I would have thought that the major difference is the infrastructure on which the social worker has immediate access to that the priest does not, but that is irrelevant in the case of an assessment being made.
I do agree the wrong call was probably made but who knows they might have thought the chance of getting a social worker out there late on friday afternoon was unlikely. It wouldn’t surprise me given what happened on saturday.
But to blame the government is nuts.
Sarah said,
April 24, 2007 at 5:37 pm
incredible and yet logically has to be true – which would have made it much more difficult for the gardai to interfere. We just have no way of knowing what they were telling the priest and the gardai. If they were resolutely denying their intentions and appeared to be getting on with each other then it must have made it so hard for the gardai to interfere by taking the children for fear of turning it into an Abbeylara or being accused of traumatising the children. (Remember in Abbeylara the cops were ferociously criticised for sending for reinforcements and if they had just sent for the local solicitor every one felt it could have been resolved). I feel sorry for those guys and the priest. They must feel awful today.
And Ben, I know you don’t live in Ireland but I genuinely think you are being unfair with the Fr. Ted comparisons. I know how it looks and sounds. But if you have a small village there are generally only about 3 or 4 community leaders who can influence a situation. The two priests in our parish are really really decent people either of whom would be helpful in a potentially inflamatory situation. Think how delicate it must have been. They have their suspicions but the parents appear calm and are acting in concert. In small town Ireland sending for a priest who has experience of dealing with bereaved and traumatised people would be a logical step. He stayed with then for 2 hours on Friday night. It’s more than the state was willing to do and its really not fair to criticise those who try.
btw a neighbour said the children were seen out on Sunday morning so locals would have thought everything was ok over the weekend. I just pray that however they died it was quick and one child didn’t witness the other dying.
ben said,
April 24, 2007 at 6:08 pm
I am not blaming the priest, nor minimizing his importance to the community, nor the role that priests play in people’s lives. But it was beyond inappropriate for the Gardaà to delegate their responsibilities to a private individual. The man had near as damn flat-out said he was going to kill himself and his family and the Gardaà took it seriously, they were concerned enough to make a gesture, but not to actually do anything.
Gordon Davies said,
April 24, 2007 at 9:16 pm
If it is true that the “victim’s” brother had recently took his own life then my comments about the inadquacy – due to YOUR reluctance to finance decent services – of mental health and social services are reinforced.
A counter example – my eldest (19) son lives in Brittany. He has the “blues” (an intelligent boy facing educational failure, dumped by his girlfriend… standard teenage angst). He has the right to a psychological backup – regular meetings with a psychologist – without having to make strenouos efforts to gain access to the service.
In France, if the gendarmes are made aware of a problem with a family they contact the local child protection agency – who have someone on call every day. At worst, a local children’s home is on call to take in endangered kids. If they encounter a major problem social services can call in the on duty “Children’s Judge” who will instruct (with the full force of the law) social services to intervene.
All this has a cost – a cost borne in Ireland until recently by the Vatican and its local antennae. The Irish public cannot ask for adequate social protection without taking responsibilty for financing such services. To give an idea – providing 24/7 cover for child protection services will more than double the present cost.
Gordon
blankpaige said,
April 24, 2007 at 9:53 pm
This thread is quite amazing. Everyone seems so certain on who is to blame.
The Priest can’t be anything but a Fr Dougal
The Gardai can’t be anything but incompetent, lazy bullies
Social Workers can’t be anything but a office-hours-working do-gooders
The HSE can’t be anything but bureaucrats
The Govt is to blame for everything.
Can ye not get over yourselves for one minute to realise that we are all to blame? We have no respect for people who try to do difficult pastoral work. We want our Gardai to pick up the pieces and to save us from ourselves. We want them to stop us speeding, root-out corruption and tackle gang warfare … and when they are at it be the social service that we don’t want to pay for. We think that by giving them a three letter acronym, the HSE is fair game for attack. We will elect anyone who promises to cut taxes (regardless of what services have to be cut in the process).
It is certain that as a free society we will increasingly encounter such tragedy. The incidence will increase the more we take the smug, holier-than-thou attitude as demonstrated by the above thread. I’m ashamed of my country and my role in getting it to where it is.
Paige
fatmammycat said,
April 24, 2007 at 10:42 pm
‘We are all to blame.’
I’m not. I didn’t smother my own children, I didn’t plan their deaths down to the clothes they should wear in their coffins. So if you don’t mind Paige, you don’t get to speak for me.
Paul Newton said,
April 24, 2007 at 10:43 pm
hear hear ~ well bloody said Paige ~ that’s basically what i was trying woefully to say earlier.
Breda said,
April 25, 2007 at 1:51 am
Sarah’s last two words “awful story” are what should be borne in mind. It is an awful story, a tragedy that should not have happened and the fact that it did suggests severe shortfalls in current Irish society, in family-life, in community and in the institutions that protect family, community and society. No amount of finger-pointing or isolationist thinking (”i live my life, to hell with everyone else”) will bring those children back. The shortfalls need to be addressed – I don’t hold too much hope.
ben said,
April 25, 2007 at 6:02 am
Paige, this is not something that just happened because we’re all imperfect; this isn’t about you, it isn’t about me, it’s not about maudlin navel-gazing and newspaper editorials and pondering the human condition, it’s about the four people who are dead who shouldn’t be. And the fact, inescapable and inavoidable, is that the Gardaà knew of a serious danger to people’s lives, and Gardaà have a unique set of responsibilities and duties which priests and publicans and doctors and bloggers and civil servants and the HSE do not have. And they failed when they were needed most.
ben said,
April 25, 2007 at 6:50 am
We are not all to blame, and the Gardaà have a responsibility which no-one else does. They have a duty to act no matter what the weather or the time; they are not priests or bloggers or civil servants.
ben said,
April 25, 2007 at 6:53 am
Bloody hell, I meant to submit *one* or *the other* but this forum software has just exacerbated everything. You’ve got red on you.
Ray said,
April 25, 2007 at 7:42 am
“We just have no way of knowing what they were telling the priest and the gardai.”
They weren’t telling the gardai anything, because the gardai never talked to them. The gardai were alerted on Friday by the undertaker. They called the priest (instead of the HSE). Saturday, they called the HSE, who couldn’t do anything over the weekend. Sunday, the gardai did nothing.
If they’d called the HSE on Friday, like they should have done? If they’d called around to the house themselves over the weekend – not determined to take the kids, just for a chat – instead of leaving it to Monday?
JL Pagano said,
April 25, 2007 at 8:41 am
Excellent thread, though it’s a pity everyone is making assumptions based on what information has come forth via the SixOne news.
On last night’s edition I seem to recall the most telling evidence of all…three hearses carrying four coffins. This tells me we should let the family grieve, and if any pressure is to be applied anywhere, it’s to those responsible for setting up a public enquiry in a reasonable yet respectful time period so our debate can be a properly informed one.
The way this country currently operates, it could be four years before we get answers, which is in no way good enough.
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 9:34 am
sigh. This is all so depressing. Here’s where I am today.
Maybe Ben and Ray are right and the gardai should’ve done something else. But I still lay most blame at the door of the HSE. They WERE told in time and there was no service. That is simply not right.
JL is right about our information being dodgy, but I suppose we’re just trying to grapple with what we are being told.
Paige is wrong. I don’t think we were holier than thou. We are all simply angry and appalled that a family clearly in trouble weren’t given the help they needed when there was time.
Gordon is right too to bring it back to what we as a people are prepared to pay for. This government had two years since Sharon Grace to fix this and did nothing. If they are re-elected, how could anyone in politics stick being in opposition? How does Dan Neville stick it? Has his campaign to prevent suicides achieved anything?
Mental health services have been consistently run down and neglected. This is the inevitable result. Any one who votes for the Pds or FF is in my view, voting to continue this strategy.
Paul Newton said,
April 25, 2007 at 9:55 am
“Any one who votes for the Pds or FF is in my view, voting to continue this strategy”
I cannot believe you have treated this as a party political election issue, I’ve given my opinion before that you see everything through Daddy’s FG glasses, but this time I am truly appalled.
These people deserve more that to be used as political leverage.
PS. I have occassionally voted for FF, FG and LAB, I could never in conscience vote PD.
Fence said,
April 25, 2007 at 9:57 am
The Gardai only had one incident of hearsay. Yes, with hindsight we can say that they should have removed the children, but at the time?
I’m no fan of the clergy, but at the same time I do think that certain comments are unfairly harsh on the priests, and the idea of getting them involved. After all, that is part of their job description, taking care of the community. You may not wish to have them calling, but if the family went to mass(I don’t know if they did or not) in the area then involving the priest is not an unreasonable action.
I think it pretty much goes without saying that the HSE should be available over the weekend.
And I would also agree with the notion that we should face the fact that low taxes means a lower standard of public care. I for one would prefer higher taxes and an efficient, free health service rather than low taxes and paying for private insurance which leaves the less well-off out in the cold.
Justin said,
April 25, 2007 at 10:03 am
Yeah, I agree with ben here — we are not “all to blame”. The blame has to go squarely to the HSE, the Gardai, and the government that failed to fix the problems after what happened down there two years ago.
Also, I have never “elected anyone who promises to cut taxes”, because it’s fucking OBVIOUS this is where that leads. That’s a lazy maudlin whinge, not reality.
I note on the news last night the govt is talking about yet another enquiry, which doubtless will make recommendations which are never acted on — then there’ll be another case 2 years from now. Incompetence. THAT is where the blame lies.
Mark Waters said,
April 25, 2007 at 10:10 am
Tim O’ Malley (Junior Health Minister responsible for Mental Health) took a battering from Claire Byrne on Newstalk this morning. Apparently, the National Office for Suicide Prevention have been “working diligently” on a report into out-of-hours services for the past year-and-a-half and they’re still trying to decide what they’re going to do and how much it will cost.
When pushed as to why it was taking so long the minister said that these were complex problems that require complex solutions. That’s debatable but remember this is the same minister who said on Prime Time last year:
“There’s a very strong view with a lot of people that depression and mental illness is not a medical condition, that it’s part of life’s events that people get depressed or get unhappy”. (via Suzy).
Complex solutions indeed. It all sounds a bit hollow.
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 10:29 am
Paul what other way is there to look at it?
Sharon Grace went looking, BEGGING, for help in Wexford two years ago on a Saturday. There was none and she killed herself and her children.
The gardai alerted the HSE on Saturday that there was a possible crisis and there was no service.
SOMEONE is accountable for the failure to act in those intervening two years and its the Minister for Health. Whatever about what the priest and the cops should have done, that fact is simply unavoidable.
Now who knows, maybe if the HSE had sent in a social worker or psychiatrist, there could have been deaths anyway. But the point is that there was a glaring need for a service, highlighted by previous deaths, and Tim O’Malley is still negotiating.
I think that conclusion is inescapable, Daddy or no Daddy.
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 10:31 am
Remember Paul, this is why a lot of people go into politics. They see people in trouble not getting help and they become politicians to try and get them help.
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 11:06 am
Talking to my mother just now and we agree that a HUGE problem are the unions who refuse to change any practices unless given unaffordable pay offs. The time to have dealt with this inflexibility was through benchmarking, and it just doesn’t seem to have happened. There should have been no benchmarking without radical productivity changes. The unions have the place at the social partnership table and it just seems to be win win for them. They got pay rises but there were no changes. Another opportunity for change was when the Health Boards converted to the HSE. There were job guarantees and again, no changes- just more money.
I am reading the Secret History of the IRA at the moment and all the extraordinary efforts people went to for the Peace Process. I am wondering if there would be any possibility of using similiar tactics to change the health service. WHOEVER wins the next election, how about if they got a cross party initiative going to break union instrangigence and appeal to get a consensus in the same way there was a peace process consensus.
My fear would be that if there was a Minister who came in and decided to try and do something that the opposition would exploit it. Maybe, enough is enough. I was just listening to the Pat Kenny show and a woman wrote in about getting chemotherapy. The appointments are for 11am. They get their bloods done which takes an hour. Then they have to wait till 2.30 to start the chemo. Why? Because the pharmacy closes for lunch. Its just pathetic.
Susan Hated Literature » Blog Archive » The blame game said,
April 25, 2007 at 12:17 pm
[...] of course bloggers are blogging about it. Some are laying blame. Finger-pointing or asking why. It is almost [...]
Colman said,
April 25, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Sarah, the problem is much more systematic than that: what Fine Gael backbencher can support closing hospitals or firing admin staff in their constituency? The Irish PR system has clientism as its main weakness. Which isn’t to say that it’s a bad system, but it means that local concerns very often trump global ones – see decentralisation for a classic example. There’s no point blaming the unions or political parties for systematic problems. Fixing those would require cooperation between the parties that is not in their electoral interest.
On the other hand, a party in power whose underlying philosophy is “you’re on your own” doesn’t help matters.
Gerry said,
April 25, 2007 at 1:56 pm
but Sarah, blaming the Minister for Health feeds into the complete lack of individual responsibility which runs form the individual worker through their union and up. The problem two years ago was a Wexford problem. Why couldn’t the wexford HSE take it on themselves to solve it. Possibly because their union would not allow them to work weekends without some collective agreement? Or there was a total lack of interest in doing it which is equally reprehensible.
Sure the minister might have coerced them into doing it or, the great solution du jour, paid for it (although is there an army of unemployed social workers ready to flood the market once the funding is in place or is it an overtime solution which could be put in place voluntarily through scheduling).
If the minister is to resign why not the head of the union, the head of the HSE and the individuals themselves? Just cutting off the head looks like action but entrenches the view that we have no personal control. If the public services and unions cannot reform themselves then turn the PDs on them, my sympathy is at an end.
Colman said,
April 25, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Do enough staff exist to do weekend cover for mental health services? Are existing staff already working flat out five days a week?
How many pharmacists work in that hospital Sarah? How many are on duty at any one time?
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 2:16 pm
I think the unions do bear enormous responsibility and anecdotally I have heard unbelievable stories about the small things they refuse to agree to unless they get a pile of money.
But we elect politicians to do the negotiations and get the best deal. Now, there is the larger problem, which Colman has touched on, about how clientelisim means that the backbencher protesting about the closing of a hospital has disproportionate power (and tops the poll).
But in this case (I must see can I hear the Newstalk Claire Byrne/Tim o’Malley interview mentioned earlier)- the PD’s had control of health and O’Malley had control of mental health. It’s HIS JOB to find a way to get the service available at the weekend. It IS his responsibility. I am trying to persuade people to join the dots between the votes they cast and the service they get. It’s not all about income tax. Its about a willingness to provide for vulnerable people. This government has failed, for whatever reason, to provide a service which the Sharon Grace incident clearly showed was needed. The unions are shits for not being more reasonable and we should all rise up and morally blackmail them into it. But the bottom line is there is a social partnership deal where these things are negotiated. Unions are employed to get the best deal for their members and we the people elect and employ politicians to get the best deal for us. The unions have won, the politicians have failed.Its time to get new politicians.
I was just wondering to myself what would happen if say, FF got back and FG did another Tallaght Strategy and agreed to support them to get changes in the health service what would happen? FG continue to lose electoral support. What if FG got in, would FF agree to co-operate with an interparty plan for the health service?
Paul Newton said,
April 25, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Sarah,
We’ll have to agree to differ on this one, I see this as a societal issue while you see it as a political one.
I see a “me fein” society where citizens have become much more selfish and insular over the years, you see a failure of management.
I see a republic that is losing many of the values it signed up to, including the one about cherishing all the children of the nation equally.
you know while this is going on… while i’m typing this.. the “cherishing the children equally” is being replaced by grubby men and grubby women in grubby little groups who are deciding how this can be used, on one hand to damage the current government (FG, LAB) and on the other to limit the damage (FF, PD).. how and where we can point the finger, so that we can ensure, not that it never happens again, but that our party extracts as much advantage as possible from it.
We get the Government we deserve and as a society we definately deserve this one, it’s intelligent educated people who believe the fallacy that the next one will be any different that amaze me.
And am i angry? Yes I’m bloody angry.
PS. – Re your wondering “what if FG got in”
If FG get in, then FF will scream for heads everytime there’s a murder, a suicide or a car accident.
FG TD’s will oppose any closures in the HSE that affect their constituency.
The civil servants will continue to preserve thier personal fiefdoms and departments will carry on “as you were”.
The Public service unions will continue to milk the country dry and then spit the dummy, with one day stoppages and blue flu’s unless they get what they want.
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose
well you were wondering!
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 4:23 pm
I’m so depressed because you are probably right. And more depressed because I’ve been listening to 5-7 Live (or whatever they call it now) on RTE. They played an interview with Jim McDaid from Highland Radio this morning talking on behalf of Ciara’s family and how they claim there was a history of upset with Aidan and now there’s an argument about the funeral arrangements. The only thing that is clear is that behind closed doors there was appalling misery and suffering and no one knew how bad it was or knew how to help. In how many other houses is there similiar dysfunctionality and pain and suffering? The best case scenario, if there is one, is that Ciara and Aidan adored their children but could see no future for them and took them with them making it all as painless as possible. For the rest of us? How about asking people “how are you?” and really meaning it and not panicking when we get a hint of trouble and leaving people to sort out their own lives. We can’t save everyone but do we ever really try?
Paul Newton said,
April 25, 2007 at 4:30 pm
have to run now but pls have a look at what i wrote yesterday.. have no idea how to link it but if you click on my name it should come up…
Niall said,
April 25, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Shit like this happens. Blaming the Gardai, or even the social workers, is just plain wrong.
The man considered buying a coffin.
Wow.
The Guards should have just locked him up straight away! In fact, why don’t we just station Guards outside establishments that sell coffins so that they can arrest anybody who considers buying a coffin. In fact, why don’t we have the Guards lock up anybody who acts a little unusual after the death of a loved one.
Calling a priest was far from ideal, but what better option did the Gardai have? The certainly didn’t have evidence that the man was a danger to his family. Can you imagine the telephone conversation they would have had with the social worker:
“Hello, this is Sgt. Roache here in Wexford. There’s a man here who seems a bit depressed. His brother’s just died and we noticed that he was seen shopping for coffins.”
People seem to imagine is that the social worker should have responded by sectioning the man, or at the very least, by asking busy social workers to stop what they were doing to go tackle the pressing issue of a man acting a little strange.
Asking the local priest to have a word seemed like a pretty proportionate response to the situation as reported. If the man was having trouble ajusting to his brother’s death, then it is a good thing to ask somebody who has experience of helping bereaved individuals to go around for a friendly chat.
We have serious problems when it comes to how we address mental health problems in this country. But this was a tragedy. People need to stop searching for somebody to blame, and instead they should focus on searching for ways to decrease the odds of such an event happening again.
paul clark said,
April 25, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Once again Sarah Carey uses a tragic public story to peddle party politics. Why don’t you simply declare this a party political broadcast on behalf of Fine Gael and fly the relevant masthead at the top. This post is a disgraceful manipulation of a dreadful tragedy in the service of small minded opportunism.
Sarah said,
April 25, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Paul could YOU tell me what is the job of the Minister for Health? What are politicians for?
I can asssure you if FG were in government and had done nothing since Sharon Grace I would be just as critical.
I have consistently argued that it is total bollox to accuse people of peddling party politics with tragedies. This is WHY people go into politics – so they can change something whether its class sizes or nursing home regulations.
There should be an out of hours emergency psychiatric service. It’s a no-brainer. With Sharon Grace we had a clear warning (not that people don’t go into crisis every weekend, but her case made explicit what people with mental health problems have known for years).
The fact that two years after her death there is still no service is a disgrace.
Isn’t that the tragedy? Or is iteasy for you to throw your hands up and say that nothing could be done? I believe we should try to do something and providing an emergency service that the gardai can call for help should be the foundation of psychiatric services.
I totally reject accusations of using this incident for political opportunity. Incidents like this, and the smaller chronic tragedies that take place all the time make me absolutely furious when I know that just a tiny bit of help could improve people’s lives dramatically. The ONLY people who change the system are the people in charge of it – the unions, the civil servants and the politicians. And we elect the politicians to make the civil servants and unions carry out our wishes.
Don’t tell me its not political. Of course it is. You talk to any person working in psychiatric services in this country and they will tell you about the systematic running down of the services. Who knows, maybe if FG got in they might fail. I don’t know. But I do know for a positive fact that the incumbents with more money at its disposal than any other government in Irish history HAVE failed. So give some one else a shot at it.
Stephen Neill said,
April 25, 2007 at 11:22 pm
paul clark said,Once again Sarah Carey uses a tragic public story to peddle party politics.
Paul I am puzzled – On what basis do you make this cynical accusation? Just because Sarah is a Fine Gael supporter/member does not mean that everything she comments on is a party political broadcast.
By the same logic I am an Anglican priest and yet I can speak against or despite my tradition when the situation calls for it. For instance today I applaud the Roman Catholic Church in Zimbabwe for their brave stand against Robert Mugabe and I hang my head in shame at the capitulation of the Anglican Church (my church) on the African continent to that evil regime with a few noteable exceptions! I have followed this thread and the party political angle has escaped me – please explain?
Gordon Davies said,
April 26, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Of course our reaction to this horrible tragedy should have a political dimension. There are questions to be answered not only about the provision of social services but also about the way inadequate (and corrupt) planning together with the systematic dismantling of local government have created disfunctional communities. Why did the neighbours and the local community not, apparently, realise the problems this family were encountering?
This political dimension takes on a party political aspect when there are alternative propositions. The FF/PD approach has manifestly failed to do anything to develop an adequate response (after all they’ve only had 10 years, be fair) whilst Labour and FG have already laid out detailed propositions especially in the mental health sector. I am sure that Liz McManus will do a far better job than the ideologically out-dated Mary Harney. The Boston model of health and social care costs a fortune and does not, cannot and never will deliver an efficient and equitable system. The PDs have failed, their neo Thatcherite ideology is totally discredited, especially in the US and UK. Let’s get on with reform and change… the first thing to do is vote out the FFailures.
Gordon DAVIES
Niall said,
April 26, 2007 at 8:31 pm
‘Why did the neighbours and the local community not, apparently, realise the problems this family were encountering?’
Gordon, what on earth makes you think that people should have been able to realise what was going on? These were people who, up until recently, acted just like anybody else in the community as far as we know.
I would advise everybody to take a moment to realise that they probably know somebody who is a child molestor. Several of your neighbours have had extra-marital affairs, that you know nothing about. Many of them have suffered or are suffering from mental disorders. The same can be said of your relatives.
People are very good at keeping secrets. It is a mistake to assume that just because somebody acts normally when you meet them in the pub, at work or in the post office, that they are not abnormal in some way. Likewise, it is a mistake to think that somebody who commits some sort of abnormal act must have been behaving like a ‘weirdo’ in living their daily life.
Gordon Davies said,
April 27, 2007 at 12:27 pm
I agree with you, how could the neighbours know, which is why I am calling into question the nature of the community that we are creating. Seeing people in the pub or the post office is a very superficial form of social contact. It would seem that people are increasingly reluctant to allow others in to their homes. When was the last time a neighbour came in unannounced and sat down for a chat and a cup of tea/beer/glass of wine. Our social life seems to be increasingly built round more distant, superficial contacts. In the same way as the 4 commuter family (parents working, kids in a not-local school) which is the Dublin commuter belt norm have a different, more distant form of family life.
I am not sure that people are that good at keeping secrets… they are however very good at avoiding taking other peoples problems. This is how many child molestors get away with it for so long.
Gordon
Please Make Mental Health an Election issue! at Irish Election said,
May 9, 2007 at 1:03 am
[...] for a great front page splash, a suicide does not not, and yet, it is really only as a result of a tragic suicide that mental health receives attention from the media. It is also the focus of many government [...]
Donna Neal said,
June 14, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Is there any updated news about this tagic story. We here in the states only get dribbles of this story. Has anyone uncovered anything or more to the point does anyone care anymore. I pray for the poor family left behind to live wth this day in and day out.
God bless them.
dm
Sarah said,
June 15, 2007 at 8:34 am
Nothing Donna. Total silence. The news agenda moved on. We’ll wait for the next case I suppose….
Conor said,
June 26, 2007 at 11:36 am
Over two months after it happened, the (Garda, HSE, government) investigations are still going on with no answers as of yet. As for the group set up to look at out-of-hours services in the wake of Sharon Grace’s death and those of her daughters, it’s still to report.