07.31.06
Israel-Lebanon
It’s just back to my original post. Forget the nuanced compromising political analysis. The Israelis are total bastards, end of story. And I know that there have been some criticisms of Tom McGurk recently but his show this morning has covered the Cana bombing amazingly well. Tom Clonan told the Israeli ambassador that they were engaged in ethnic cleansing. I am so glad someone said it. The ambassador’s logic was that if the people had left they wouldn’t be dying. He never managed to explain how the poor, the young and the old are supposed to leave an area where everything is being bombed.
Billy Waters said,
July 31, 2006 at 10:18 am
Genocide.
simon said,
July 31, 2006 at 10:24 am
Do you not think that if Israel was engaged in etnic cleansing it would do a better job of it? Look at the hardware it has. It could do a lot of damage. Also don’t forget the 1 million Israelis that have fled their homes in the north of Israel. The difference in human casualities on both sides is due to the fact that the Israelis are richer, so they can move and have fall out shelters in every home (planning permission requirement) and the hezbollah missles are crica world war 2 grade. if hezbollah had the hardware israel had the israelis didn’t have the ability to move then we would see 10,000s of israel dead.
Also to move doesn’t take you that long to go . A mile and they would be safe s**t I know but you can’t say that most cannot move out of the way.
I am no fan of Israel (despite what people think) but to say it is etnic cleansing is very niave and not very usefull
Ciaran said,
July 31, 2006 at 10:28 am
History has a terrible way of repeating itself –
According to a U.N. report, on April 18 1996, Hezbollah, fired two Katyusha rockets and eight mortars at Israeli soldiers near the so-called Red Line (the northern limits of the “security zone”) from areas about 200 meters southwest and 350 meters southeast of the United Nations compound. 15 minutes later an Israeli unit responded by shelling the area with M-109A2 155 mm guns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_shelling_of_Qana
Daniel K. said,
July 31, 2006 at 12:42 pm
I listened to a good bit of Tom this morning, well, up until the Israeli ambassador came on (after I heard the comment on Morning Ireland that the bombing of Qana wasn’t a mistake my objectively left the house for a brisk walk, and I know how it sounds but everytime I hear someone from the Israeli side talking about the situation and how we in the West or particularily Europe have to understand what it is like to deal with the Arabs nations around them, I’m reminded of Amon Goeth’s character).
Part of the problem with the show was that it was a trio of folks coming at the situation from the “dear God, it’s terrible”, “no, it’s more terrible than that”, ‘Terribliest thing ever’, ‘ actually, there have been terrible things before!’. I think the Israelis are going about this all wrong and it will only end with more instablity that before, and a huge cost in terms of lives lost. However, we’ve gotten too much into the mindset that violence is never, ever necessary or required. I don’t believe it is needed now, but there are times when it is.
Billy Waters said,
July 31, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Simon,
Imagine this all happening in Dublin or wherever you live. Think practically, how are you going to move all the people you know, all the people you don’t know and all the people who are too old or whatever to move themselves. Imagine this with the pressure of being caught inbetween a soverign state and a mobile terrorist army and YOUR contry is utterly powerless to help you.
It is genocide. It is being made out as a proxy war with Syria and Iran but it is just visiting hell on the people of Lebanon.
We need to send the Israeli ambassador home if we are to call ourselves civilised. I am sorry for what happened to the Israelis and Jewish people in the past. If they are Gods chosen people can they please show some humanity to your fellow man.
Today they have a choice. The people they are hitting have no choice. It is a case of the bullied turning into a bully.
Ireland standing back because the US has many company bases here is not an excuse. Cowards are not respected. Not letting bombs go through our airspace was a good start but not enough.
America is in decline anyway. The American century was the 20th Century The world and its money is moving East.
simon said,
July 31, 2006 at 1:29 pm
Imagine this all happening in Dublin or wherever you live We could do this imagine stuff all day long and not get anyway. Imagine you were in ireland and the UVF were firing 100s of missiles into dundalk targeting schools. What would you want the government to do. Just do nothing, just take the missiles and say we can’t anger the left in Europe. While the population of Dublin moves to kilkenny?.
By the way if you want to make a full comparrison between the IRA and Hezbollah. The following conditions would have to be met.
1. The british would have to have left Northern Ireland.
2. The UN would have had to instruct the Irish government to act against the IRA
3. The Irish government would have had to not act in anyway and give them free reign to do what they like in regions within missile range of Britian.
4. Sinn Fein would have to be in government.
send the Israeli ambassador home if we are to call ourselves civilised.
In that case we should send the lebannes and palestinian ambasadors home as well. Because they to allow terror be visted upon civilians.
They did they pulled out of both gaza and Lebannon a brave move that were unpopular. What did they get for doing this? Missiles? What would you have liked them to do differently ship off to yellowstone park (someone in Indymedia suggested this)
Ireland standing back because the US has many company bases here is not an excuse US companies are here to make profits not to shore up American foreign policy. Think about over 50% of the people in america disagree with the war in Iraq. So chances are the CEO’s of these companies on average do too.
America is in decline anyway. The American century was the 20th Century The world and its money is moving East.
Ah we will see. I would doubt it. I think more contries will just join America’s level. They have the money, education and demographs to compeat. Europe is f**ked though.
EWI said,
July 31, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Do you not think that if Israel was engaged in etnic cleansing it would do a better job of it?
Unfortunately (for them), they’ve had UNIFIL and UNTSO looking over their shoulders for the past 25 years.
simon said,
July 31, 2006 at 1:39 pm
I think I left a italics tag opened should be closed now hopefully
Billy Waters said,
July 31, 2006 at 2:30 pm
We do the imagining thing all day long. Look rationally at it. One side says that an invisible voice in their heads says that they are the favoured ones and the other side says the same. This invisible voice we call religion. As John Lennon put it “God is a concept by which we measure our pain”.
Religion is only legalised madness. I have zero time for religious nuts of any flavour or creed. Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Protestant, anything. All they ever have to show for themselves is death and destruction. And the only thing they have to back it up is that God sent them to do it. Not acceptable any more. Spirituality fine, but organised hatred and killing not fine.
Ignorance is not a point of view. I never compared the IRA to anyone. Its not the same and bullshitting about where Dundalk is is irrelevant to the Middle East. Like knowing how many buses you can fit in Croker its got no bearing in the real world.
Relating everything back to Northern Ireland is pointless. The only thing in common is that it is religiously based after that projecting “if this was in Ireland” only helps to sort out distances in your mind but nothing about the region. Oh, and the fact the the British governments messing started both conflicts. Thats it.
The Lebanese embassy for Ireland is in the UK. You go over and tell him to pack his bags. There is no rep from Palestine listed by Foreigh affairs Not having its borders or status yet kinda hinders this a wee bit or do you not watch the news?
CEO’s in general don’t care about the government. They are only interested in staying in their jobs and how they do that is by returning the most amount of profit back to their shareholders. What they think of the war or Ireland being a skiddly idely cool place is irrelevant to shareholders and the business. Raising corporation tax would make them leggit not Irelands stance on a war in another country.
And to say that more countries will join Americas level is naive. China has American in its pocket becasue their defecit is in Chinese hands. China could turn the economic screws on America when it wants. America is up to its ears in debt to Asia. China is colonising Africa as we speak and will pass the US out and keep going.
Lets face it if there were no oil in the Middle East this wouldn’t even get on the news.
pete said,
July 31, 2006 at 2:33 pm
I read an interesting angle in one of the weekend newspapers (sorry, can’t remember who wrote it).
The writer recalled that in 1956 Britian and France encouraged Israel to invade Egypt. This gave Britian and France the perfect excuse to send their own troops into Egypt and sieze control of the Suez Canal, to “protect the free world”.
The writer wondered if there might be a parallels with the current situation. If Iran gets drawn into the conflict and attacks Israel, this would give the US the perfect excuse to send it’s troops into Iran to sieze control of or destroy it’s nuclear facilities “to protect the free world”.
Interesting idea. Time will tell.
P O'Neill said,
July 31, 2006 at 3:20 pm
I think the Suez parallel is going to be a British PM done in by a tacit alliance with an overly aggressive Israeli military action that results in the Israelis having to withdraw and said PM resigning in humiliation, a la Eden. This time, though, it’s the US and not France that will share in the humiliation. It’ll be Gordon Brown at the despatch box when Parliament resumes in a couple of months.
simon said,
July 31, 2006 at 3:36 pm
there is a palestinain ambassador of some sort. http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2006/07/19/story268478.asp
Billy I agree with half you save and disagree with the other half and really couldn’t be bothered going through the whole debate again.
Billy Waters said,
July 31, 2006 at 5:19 pm
Sorry for putting you out.
I am sure that the Lebanese are sick to death with it too. Bombs falling on them as they sleep.
simon said,
July 31, 2006 at 7:35 pm
yes and as they die we type on a keyboard santimonius shit that will achieve nothing but allow people to make smug little comments to make themselves feel big and clever. Bravo.
Ray said,
July 31, 2006 at 8:59 pm
Ray said,
July 31, 2006 at 9:00 pm
Sarah said,
July 31, 2006 at 9:19 pm
now now boys.
Ray, you were trying to get in there?
Billy Waters said,
July 31, 2006 at 10:39 pm
In what way was it smug? Smug is a perception and I am not interested in blowing wind up my own arse. To who? And to what purpose would I bother doing it for?
I have strong opinions and I don’t welcome bogshitery putdowns. Its the equivilant of heckling. I am not anonymous because the owner of this blog is not anonymous either and its not fair to snipe anonymously. I gave my name and opinion and get called smug and sanctimonious. (note the spelling of sanctimonious)
Send the Ambassador home. Call your TD, protest outside the embassy, stop buying Israeli potatoes and oranges. DO something.
Typical Irish response, don’t solve the problem but slag off the person with any kind of opinion.
Israel is in a difficult position. Israel has been for a long time. The Jewish people feel hard done by and have little or no friends out there in the desert.
Israel lashes out and over reacts as usual and is supported in “fighting terror” by America because they need the Jewish vote at home.
Ireland feels bought by America so we sit on our hands and let Israel do what it likes. Becasue we are afraid the economic party will end if we have any kind of opinion.
What if we had German investment in 1939? What would we have done? Looked the other way as Germany did its thing?
We claim neutrality but we sit slackjawed and morbidly gawk at what is happening. We need to get off the fence. Or else we just prove that we have shallow morals and these can be bought by the highest bidder.
And the Lebanese people get the end result of this. American bombs landing on their houses and killing their children. And all you can come up with is its all pointless and some smug bastard keeps saying stuff you don’t like.
Yes Israel is a target. Yes they have large neighbours who want them gone but they aren’t exactly wonderful neighbours either.
Ray said,
August 1, 2006 at 8:38 am
Just trying to close that open tag
graham said,
August 1, 2006 at 12:55 pm
The whole situation there is sickening. I’m disgusted with our government, once again, for their complete lack of leadership on this issue. I think what has become blatantly obvious from this whole scenario is how utterly pointless the UN is. Without Condi Rice in the US to put forward her plan, nothing has been done. That’s appaling and unacceptable.
Take a look at your local supermarket and just don’t buy products from Israel, simple as that.
Luke Mc said,
August 1, 2006 at 4:14 pm
It IS a proxy war between Syria and Iraq on one side and the US on the other, there’s no doubt about it. It’s all very reminiscent of the Central American debacle in the 80s where the ordinary people were terrorised and their homes reduced to rubble by two warring superpowers.
I agree that the US is completely out of line in supporting the Israelis, who are acting grotesquely and irresponsibly, and that the ordinary people of Lebanon are suffering.
Having said that, Paddy Ashdown made a very good point in his comment piece in the Guardian last week. How would we like it if Hizbollah won and destroyed Israel? I certainly wouldn’t…they are a bunch of Islamofascist thugs in my mind who would happily drag the whole Mediterranean MIddle East back into the Stone Age if they got their way.
Another thing that bothers me is that Lebanon is a relatively progressive, cosmpolitan Arab country whose people have a long outward looking mercantile tradition, with a sophisticated and large diaspora. It seems amazing that the Jews of Israel would try to destroy the country that is culturally closest to them – its a bit like Thatcher invading Dublin in the 80s because of the IRA campaign in England.
Surely there’s money to be made trading with Lebanon. It’s bizarre.
As for our government’s lack of leadership, you’d be hard pressed a more spineless bunch of plamasers. Here’s a particularly terrible example – http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/06/28/story265429.html
Billy Waters said,
August 1, 2006 at 6:02 pm
Czech out these two blogs I got from Mobuzz.tv
Two from the Lebanese side and one from the Israeli side.
http://www.bloggingbeirut.com/
http://israelblog.org/
http://www.angryarab.blogspot.com/
Todays post shows the seven shades of shite that Israel has blown out of Beiruit.
Our Government continue to be a disgrace and slow footed on this. But not meeting Condi Rice and carrying her bag in Shannon was a bit cool IMHO.
jimbobs said,
August 1, 2006 at 8:44 pm
Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation by anyone’s definition. They form part of the Lebanese government, so what did Lebanon expect when they chose to share power with these nutcases? As ye sow…
Hezbollah has been raining down rockets on civilian targets and yet the Israelis are condemned whenever a shell goes astray.
Israel’s actions are justified both in moral and practical terms. Morally, jews cannot be expected to live by Christian turn-the-other-cheek standards. After all, not even their enemies in this conflict are Christian. They believe in retributive retaliation, as do their weaker enemies. In practical terms, their staunch defence policy has reaped territorial rewards in the past and will continue to do so in the future as Israel expands its country over the Palestinan controlled areas.
People forget that all countries have come into existence through the violent seizing of land from those weaker or less advanced than the victors.
As for Israel’s diplomacy, it is second to none. What other small country can count two unflinchingly loyal allies, both permanent members of the UN security council?
Calling the Israelis bastards is just ugly racism. The jews have suffered enough in the past at the hands of those who despise them for their success.
strauss said,
August 1, 2006 at 9:28 pm
Billy, one question (and for any other oh-those-Israelis-are-terrible people out there): how else will Israel defend itself from Hezbollah’s rockets? No answer – I thought not.
Ray said,
August 1, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Rather than mass bombing? Troops on the ground. That would mean risking the lives of Israeli soldiers rather than those of Lebanese civilians, but it couldn’t be less effective at stopping the rockets.
strauss said,
August 1, 2006 at 9:51 pm
Ray, there are Israeli troops on the ground already. And a full-scale ground invasion (as I think you’re suggesting) also involves artillery, tanks and air support – hardly a guarantee of less civilian deaths, let alone a guarantee of no civilian deaths.
Ray said,
August 1, 2006 at 10:00 pm
There are, but all the reports I’ve read say that Israel is sticking to a policy of air and artillery power rather than risking troops in close assaults.
I’m not suggesting a full-scale invasion of Lebanon, btw, but if the IDF identifies targets it has a choice between attempting to take those targets with troops or with bombs. Bombs cost less Israeli lives, but they are far less accurate, and much worse at telling the difference between a bunker and an air-raid shelter.
And besides, it is not even a question of ‘defending themselves from Hezbollah rockets’, because the exclusion zone the Israelis say they want to set up is too narrow to stop rocket attacks. And there is no way – no way on earth – that a bombombing campaign is going to kill every Hezbollah militant in South Lebanon – unless it kills everyone in South Lebanon.
strauss said,
August 1, 2006 at 10:29 pm
I do think Israel should send in more troops, but I can understand why they don’t – they have been very badly stung by Hezbollah (dozens of dead and injured soldiers) since that group is well-armed, well-trained and very firmly dug in. Dead Lebanese civilians are not what Israel wants and each one is victory for Hezbollah. However, if it is a choice between Lebanese and Israeli lives (which it sadly is sometimes) Israel will reluctantly choose to save its own, as any country would. The exclusion zone, I presume, includes most of the rocket-launching sites, so even if you are right, enforcing that zone would destroy most of Hezbollah’s launchers, missiles, fuel, etc.
Ray said,
August 1, 2006 at 10:47 pm
Dozens of dead and injured soldiers, compared to how many hundreds of dead Lebanese civilians? How many Lebanese children is an IDF soldier worth these days?
BTW, Katyusha rockets are fired from mobile launchers.
strauss said,
August 1, 2006 at 11:04 pm
If Israel had sent a large ground force in to all those places where civilians were killed and injured (rather than dropping bombs) Israeli casualties would surely be in the hundreds by now.
“How many Lebanese children is an IDF soldier worth these days?”
That’s a cheap shot. Obviously Isreal dropped the bombs, but Hezbollah deliberately places its launchers in residential areas, in hopes that incidents like Qana will happen. Under the Geneva convention, Hezbollah is responsible for their deaths. In fact your question is probably one that Hezbollah would be most qualified to answer.
Even if Katyusha missiles are fired from mobile launchers, clearing the exclusion zone will still trap most, if not all, of them inside and destroy them.
Billy Waters said,
August 1, 2006 at 11:14 pm
Yo! Strauss!
I am not sitting beside you so saying “no answer…thought not” is a bit premature no? Don’t be so smug and I-told-you-so. At least wait a second for someone to respond instead of the childish put-down straight off the bat.
Israel has enemies. You are right there. I never said they didn’t but killing grannies and kids is not the way to endear themselves to their neighbours.
Oh-those-Israelies-ARE-terrible. I am not band-wagoneering I am just saying what I believe to be true. I am not an Iranian apologist nor am I some trendy Anti-Semite. I said before I don’t buy religion as a basis for war. Religion is legalised madness and an excuse to do things that under other circumstances would be totally outrageous.
The Israelis are bombing recklessly and indiscrimanately. So are Hezbollah. Two wrongs and all that jazz. This is a proxy war where Israel with American backing and diplomatic dithering is fighting an Iranian backed stateless army trying to see who has the biggest willy. Israel has a new PM and each side is seeing how hard they can push the other.
They are fighting in a country whos citizens are caught yet again in the middle. That is the part that is wrong, immoral and disgusting. If Israel wants to fight its enemies let them invade Tehran or Damascus.
I will not stand by and let Israel claim self defence when this self defence means that they can kill civilians in another country. Come on.
I
Billy Waters said,
August 1, 2006 at 11:15 pm
And yet again I get sniped by an anonymous griper.
Name, Rank and Serial number!
Ray said,
August 1, 2006 at 11:26 pm
If Israel had had to risk it’s ground troops when it wanted to attack each of those targets, maybe it wouldn’t have attacked so many, and there’d be fewer dead civilians. Jesus, you’re making my point for me.
And cheap shots? You are the one who argued that Israel was choosing to risk Lebanese lives instead of Israeli lives.
Under the Geneva convention, the fact that one side is in breach of the convention does not absolve the other side of responsibility for following the rules of war. Even if Hezbollah is firing from civilian areas (and what other areas of Lebanon do you have in mind, incidentally), the IDF is obliged to do what it can to minimise civilian casualties. Threatening to demolish ten apartment blocks for every one hit by Hezbollah is not minimising civilian casualties.
Clearing the exclusion zone will only catch the rockets if all of the rockets are inside the zone at the time, and if you manage to seal the borders of the zone. The smaller it is, the more rockets are outside. The bigger the zone, the harder it is to seal it off (and sealing off an area is very, very difficult at the best of times). .
strauss said,
August 1, 2006 at 11:35 pm
Billy, okay I got an answer (which I was actually surprised about).
First of all, the Israelis are not bombing “recklessly and indiscrimanately”. Leaflets, radio broadcasts, even text messages, are sent to warn villagers to move (even though these also warn Hezbollah to get away as well) – those at Qana were given over a week’s worth of warning (no, that is NOT a justification for their deaths). I agree it’s wrong, immoral and disgusting that the war is being fought in Lebanese villages; however, blame Hezbollah for that because Israel must destroy those rocket launchers (which are deliberately placed near as many civilians as possible).
I actually agree that the sooner Iran and Syria’s regimes are destroyed the better, but we can both rest assured that this latest test of America and the West has brought that day far closer.
Luke Mc said,
August 2, 2006 at 12:28 am
>Morally, jews cannot be expected to live by Christian turn-the-other-cheek standards.
This is nonsense frankly. Israel want to align themselves with Europe and the West, so they should follow best practice here – they say all they want is a secure homeland, the best way to do this is by making peace with your neighbours. They did it with Egypt after all. They should be looking to develop contacts with progressive/non-Islamofascist tendencies in in Lebanon, not blowing the shite out of the south of the country.
Having said that, Hizbollah are deplorable. It’s the average Lebanese punter I feel most sorry for.
L.
Billy Waters said,
August 2, 2006 at 11:27 am
America wasn’t tested. George Bush played to the gallery in the US yesterday by justifying Israels actions becasue it “prevents” another September 11. Dangerous and misleading.
If your neighbour two doors down is shooting rockets from next door who do you respond to? A civlilised nation says to the neighbour to get that boy out of your garden, look at what he is doing and then go two doors down.
Instead of killing the locals the Israelis should helpt strengthen Lebanon and its government so they can repel any private armies from operating in their territory. Who knows they might even get along. Israel needs all the friends she can get in the region and like most bullies she can’t make and keep relationships going.
Provoking Hizbollah and taking the fight to them is only going to result in more tears. Israel needs to go and read Negotiion for Dummies followed by Humility for Dummies.
You don’t see the Dalai Lama bunker-busting Beijing do you? But then Buddhism is based on not having a supreme being so he is a bit more chilled out. Religion is the root of all evil and at the centre of religion it is most intense. Thsi whole conflict is religiously divided and complicated becasue these fanatical Zionists and Muslims are sitting on a load of oil. That we are willing to pay for with other peoples lives.
gerry said,
August 2, 2006 at 12:37 pm
the dalai lama! sheesh!
Let’s get a couple of facts right – “hundreds” of rockets were not raining down on Israel before the conflict was inflamed. Some were. As were many more on Lebanon killing people on beaches for example. The situation started when the Israeli sodiers were captured NOT in response to Hizbollah rocket attacks.
Secondly does anyone really believe that it is a sustainble policy to simply bomb (or attack by land) every rocket site and that’s it – hizbollah is finished. BLATANTLY Israel has another agenda, a war by proxy as Luke stated and Lebanon is the cock pit.
Which makes it all the more galling – progressive, bouyant, Western-looking, modern Lebanon where Hizbollah was becoming more and more irrelevant as these groups become when people have something to lose. Working with the Lebanese government Israel could have secured a long term defeat of Hizbollah (admittedly with some short term damage) but instead has decided on one of its sporadic shows of strength to destroy the Lebanese gov, the infrastructure of Lebanon, the concept of Lebanon in order to do what – send a message to Syria and Iran that they won’t be fucked with?
What hope now for any Arab/Islamic state to attempt to develop a working relationship with Israel when this level of humiliation is visited upon them. The polarisation is restored. this is NOT self-defence; this is not about protecting borders or citizens. It is a show of strength and the Lebanese are the victims. I could buy a Suez style conspiracy alright but really what I struggle with is how does Israel intend to co-exist in the region when it will willingly humiliate one of the few countries that had the potential to become an ally?
Billy Waters said,
August 2, 2006 at 7:49 pm
Re Gerry,
Apart from the Dalai Lama bit ( I was just trying to illustrate how the blinkers of religion lead to the chick-chuck of an AK47 or a missle being loaded) I was cheering.
Sarah said,
August 2, 2006 at 8:58 pm
check this out. Thanks to Paddy http://bloodandtreasure.typepad.com/blood_treasure/2006/08/arc_of_arson.html
Billy Waters said,
August 2, 2006 at 9:28 pm
Blatently changing the subject slightly we need to remember that becasue this thing is in the news doesn’t mean they are the only bad boys of the world.
Countries like Burma, North Korea and China are probably as brutal or more brutal than Israel or Iran. If its not on the news and some overexcited reporter is not jumping up and down about it it doesn’t mean its not happening.
Aung San Suu Kyi is still under house arrest. Just remember her if you are looking to buy a teak table (ripped out of Burmese forests via China, think of the Angolan war when you buy an engagement diamond (blood diamonds) and the conditions in the Cote D’Ivoire (child labour) when you buy chocolate.
We are all connected on this planet and decisions you make directly impact on the suffering or betterment of another human being.
Beating your own people up is still beating. We need to be mindful of this and temper the amount of sought after attention and sympathy that Israel is looking for.
Israle is a spoilt child throwing its expensive toys out of its pram in thix context and deserves our contempt for stealing our attention.
Yes they are Gods Chosen People and they are persecuted but they are not the only ones and the lady doth protest much.
And to my mind they (Israel, Iran and Syria) don’t act in a Godly manner. In fact the complete opposite.
leon said,
August 4, 2006 at 9:19 am
The reality is that if Israel can’t take 1000 dead soldiers every few years they won’t hold the country. That is simply the price they must pay. If they cannot pay it let them be destroyed.
Billy Waters said,
August 6, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Leon,
In all fairness that is a load of bollocks. 1000 soldiers every few years? Is there a quota?
If they cannot pay it let them be destoyed? What kind of armchair general are you?
With a makey up name.
If you are going to leave comments like that be brave enough to use your own name.
I think we should all re-watch the Life of Brian to see how absurd we all act in light of this conflict.
Sarah said,
August 7, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Actually his name really is Leon. But he is a desperate troller. Don’t mind him. Leon, behave.
Tony Allwright said,
August 10, 2006 at 12:48 pm
What a hysterical illogical tirade this thread constitutes. At least it tells us that Jew-hatred is alive and well, so Hitler can rest happy in his grave.
The most laughable comment comes from Billy Waters, “You don’t see the Dalai Lama bunker-busting Beijing do you?“, which appears to be his advice to Israel.
There is of course one answer to this: Tibet.
A country brutally invaded by the illegitimate Communist regime in China, which is focussed on eradicating all vestiges of Tibetan identity, culture and language. It does this through military force, the chasing away of unco-operative religious leaders (hint: the Dalai Lama), the imprisonment or execution of any other awkward Tibetans, the wanton destruction of Tibetan holy places, and massive immigration of ethnic Han Chinese. The latest step on this road is the opening of a direct train service from Beijing to Lhasa for the sole purpose of making further colonisation by the Han and other non-Tibetans even easier. Tibetans are now a minority in their own country, so no doubt the Chinese thugs who run the place will at some stage allow a little bit of democracy to creep in.
Oh, and by the way, the world has looked on, applauding, for the past 55 years.
Tibet’s fate is the logical result of not resisting (with bunker busters if necessary) aggression aimed at your annihilation. This is what many Jew-haters seem to advocate for Israel.
Billy Waters said,
August 10, 2006 at 6:11 pm
To Tony Allwright.
Pull your head in. I advised nobody to do anything to anyone.
Your comments are offensive and drawing conclusions that were not stated.
I don’t hate any race or religion but do not condone anyone blowing the shite out of anyone else.
Tony Allwright said,
August 10, 2006 at 7:36 pm
Not advising anyone to do anything? Great! I presume that Hezbollah (and Hamas) are top of the list for this advice.
But since they did do something to someone (ie invade Israel, kill and kidnap soldiers, launch rockets into Israel), I think that advising nobody to do anything to anyone is morally bankrupt. These people have to be stopped, and if Israel doesn’t do it, no-one else will (UNIFIL has already shown its incompetence in this area). And don’t think infidel-annihilation stops with Jews.
I’m glad to hear you don’t hate any race or religion – it certainly didn’t seem that way.
Personally I hate Islamism. In the absence of a Renaissance, it is a depraved ideology that preaches perpetual jihad against infidels, oppression against women, totalitarianism and no back-chat from the faithful. Ordinary Muslims are amongst its most long-suffering victims. It makes the Nazis seem benign.
Billy Waters said,
August 10, 2006 at 9:48 pm
To Tony Allwright.
Please take back your comment calling the people who commented here Jew-haters.
This is offensive and libellous behavour.
People were trying to discuss current events here. You just slandered us all for trying to discuss it with some kind of warped political view.
I would request that you take your ignorance somewhere else.
Tony Allwright said,
August 11, 2006 at 7:52 am
If there are no Jew-haters in this thread I am delighted. If contributors were more careful in their language they wouldn’t give that impression.
Billy Waters said,
August 11, 2006 at 8:27 am
That impression is in your head. Not in the words I type.
tomcosgrave said,
August 11, 2006 at 1:10 pm
It’s sad that Tony, who rightfully condemns those with a hatred of Jews and Judaism, is himself a hater of Islam. To my mind, he is no better than than the anti-Semites of the world.
Also – nice invocation of Godwin’s Law there, Tony.
Tony Allwright said,
August 12, 2006 at 5:58 am
Hating Jews is to hate a race as well as a religion, and by the way the religion has only peaceable intentions. Hating Islamism is to hate a murderous ideology, which people choose to sign up to (or to remain signed up to), not a race which they have no choice over. That’s a huge difference. I by no means hate Arabs or Iranians, for example, just the Islamism that some of them embrace.
I think it would be more “sad” not to hate Islamism.
Billy Waters said,
August 12, 2006 at 3:15 pm
I think that Tony Allwright should take a moment to reflect. There are hate laws in many countries and his comments are close to inciting hatred.
As I have stated many times before religion is legalised madness and a license to kill people that you don’t like but I do not and cannot support hate of any kind.
The closer to the church the further from God.
al said,
August 14, 2006 at 6:26 pm
Tony Allwright might believe that it’s okay to be a bigot, but not a racist, but he ought to note that there’s quite the rich racial mix amongst the jewish religion, particularly in Israel, so maybe he’s no more of a ‘hater’ than those he points the finder at.
A couple of pointers for Tony however.
1. UNIFIL naver was going to stop anyone doing anything nasty. Their mandate and terms of reference are as an observer group, ie: they keep a tally on the nastyness on both sides of the border, and report back to the security council. So they haven’t been incompentent in the slightest. They just been doing their job, generally very well.
2. Hizbullah weren’t launching rockets into Israel up until this crisis. They’ve been engaged in a six year campaign against the IDF on the border, and haven’t actually killed any Israeli civilians* prior to this current bun-fight. * One Israeli civilian was killed by falling Hizbullah anti-aircarft debris, following an Israeli military jet’s incursion into Lebanese airspace, but I think that incident falls into that quaint territory ‘collatoral damage’.
3. Only hating all the non-Muslim Iranians and Arabs doesn’t do you any favours. You come across as the epitomy of a scared xenophobe, only too willing to write your fears onto the faith of a billion people and see a bogieman at every turn.
4. That you willingly subscribe to the conspiracy theorists with regard to the Qana bombing (errant Israeli bomb?!) on your blog speaks volumes for your bias and tunnel vision. Keep collating your rants and delusions. I’m sure they’ll prove useful to someone’s research into wingnuttery some day.
Billy Waters said,
August 14, 2006 at 10:45 pm
I read the blog of Tony Allwright.
Apparently I am some particular ranter. So be it. I am some little person that knows nothing and I need to be educated about how all this works. By someone in the know. Someone on the inside. Someone who watches the news and knows whats what.
I brought up Tibet as an example of passive resistance. Not an excuse for some amateur historians tirade about trains in China.
We can intellectualise this all we want. I am on neither side but killing civilians no matter who they are is not on. Not now. Not then. Not ever. We are losing sight of our humanity.
It is a sexy conflict. Its “cool” to know all about it. Whats not cool and what I was trying to say was that its not cool to drop bombs on peoples houses. People whether you like it or not like you and me.
And it is cool to discuss what is going on. It is cool to express what we think. By discussing things and working them out then maybe more people would join in and we could come to some sort of understanding.
Instead I get called a Jew-Hater. And a ranter. If I had just sat there and shut up like a good little boy and not had an opinion and let the experts tell us whats what it would be ok. But no it had to be a personalised attack.
Libellous, wrong and a naked attack on my right to free speech. I am allowed to be wrong. I am allowed to have free speech.
Tony Allwright said,
August 15, 2006 at 10:50 am
Thank God we who are lucky enough to live in the democratic West inhabit a society where free speech is allowed to all. Even to those with whom we ardently disagree, even to bigots. This is not the case in an Islamicist society.
Tony Allwright said,
August 15, 2006 at 1:02 pm
Calling Billy Waters a “ranter” in my blog is unnecessarily derogatory and personal, so I have changed it to “contributor“. My apologies.
Billy Waters said,
August 16, 2006 at 8:00 pm
http://israelblog.org/1155048877
In the following article from Ha’aretz, Ze’ev Maoz, a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university, provides a more detailed look at the issue of “moral equivalence” in this war. This was written on July 25th.
Morality is not on our side
By Ze’ev Maoz
There’s practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards.
This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah’s side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah “started it” when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side.
Let’s start with a few facts. We invaded a sovereign state, and occupied its capital in 1982. In the process of this occupation, we dropped several tons of bombs from the air, ground and sea, while wounding and killing thousands of civilians. Approximately 14,000 civilians were killed between June and September of 1982, according to a conservative estimate. The majority of these civilians had nothing to do with the PLO, which provided the official pretext for the war.
In Operations Accountability and Grapes of Wrath, we caused the mass flight of about 500,000 refugees from southern Lebanon on each occasion. There are no exact data on the number of casualties in these operations, but one can recall that in Operation Grapes of Wrath, we bombed a shelter in the village of Kafr Kana which killed 103 civilians. The bombing may have been accidental, but that did not make the operation any more moral.
On July 28, 1989, we kidnapped Sheikh Obeid, and on May 12, 1994, we kidnapped Mustafa Dirani, who had captured Ron Arad. Israel held these two people and another 20-odd Lebanese detainees without trial, as “negotiating chips.” That which is permissible to us is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah.
Hezbollah crossed a border that is recognized by the international community. That is true. What we are forgetting is that ever since our withdrawal from Lebanon, the Israel Air Force has conducted photo-surveillance sorties on a daily basis in Lebanese airspace. While these flights caused no casualties, border violations are border violations. Here too, morality is not on our side.
So much for the history of morality. Now, let’s consider current affairs. What exactly is the difference between launching Katyushas into civilian population centers in Israel and the Israel Air Force bombing population centers in south Beirut, Tyre, Sidon and Tripoli? The IDF has fired thousands of shells into south Lebanon villages, alleging that Hezbollah men are concealed among the civilian population. Approximately 25 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Katyusha missiles to date. The number of dead in Lebanon, the vast majority comprised of civilians who have nothing to do with Hezbollah, is more than 300.
Worse yet, bombing infrastructure targets such as power stations, bridges and other civil facilities turns the entire Lebanese civilian population into a victim and hostage, even if we are not physically harming civilians. The use of bombings to achieve a diplomatic goal – namely, coercing the Lebanese government into implementing UN Security Council Resolution 1559 – is an attempt at political blackmail, and no less than the kidnapping of IDF soldiers by Hezbollah is the aim of bringing about a prisoner exchange.
There is a propaganda aspect to this war, and it involves a competition as to who is more miserable. Each side tries to persuade the world that it is more miserable. As in every propaganda campaign, the use of information is selective, distorted and self-righteous. If we want to base our information (or shall we call it propaganda?) policy on the assumption that the international environment is going to buy the dubious merchandise that we are selling, be it out of ignorance or hypocrisy, then fine. But in terms of our own national soul searching, we owe ourselves to confront the bitter truth – maybe we will win this conflict on the military field, maybe we will make some diplomatic gains, but on the moral plane, we have no advantage, and we have no special status.
gina said,
February 26, 2007 at 1:31 am
have they ever goten along in the past?