Comments on: If nobody fails the exam, the qualification is meaningless http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/ An Irish woman's social, political and domestic commentary Sat, 19 Mar 2011 23:50:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Ray http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-62420 Ray Fri, 20 Apr 2007 17:11:21 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-62420 You also have to remember that, as the article says, entry requirements have increased, and so, are in keeping with exams getting slightly easier. Admitedly, the change is noticable in terms of people getting better results, but because the requirements for courses have also gone up, the changes shouldnt make a difference to the system as the two are in sync. Also, nowadays all students (whether they are genius' or not) are being encouraged to pursue a college course. In the not so distant past, alot of ignorance surrounded the issue of college. But now that more people are clued in on the subject and wht it has to offer, a high percentage of students are striving for places. More students, of all abilities, are working hard to achieve enough points for the college course they desire. This can only be a good thing; knowledge is power! You also have to remember that, as the article says, entry requirements have increased, and so, are in keeping with exams getting slightly easier. Admitedly, the change is noticable in terms of people getting better results, but because the requirements for courses have also gone up, the changes shouldnt make a difference to the system as the two are in sync. Also, nowadays all students (whether they are genius’ or not) are being encouraged to pursue a college course. In the not so distant past, alot of ignorance surrounded the issue of college. But now that more people are clued in on the subject and wht it has to offer, a high percentage of students are striving for places. More students, of all abilities, are working hard to achieve enough points for the college course they desire. This can only be a good thing; knowledge is power!

]]> By: mike http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-47256 mike Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:09:10 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-47256 The other main problem are with leaving certificate points is that of relevance. For instance a prospective medical student may present an A1 in higher level geography worth 100 points when meeting the entry requirements, That subject when placed with five other A1 honours subjects allows its student the rare privelege of having 600 points. Well done. But what on earth is the relevance of geography to a doctor I ask? Wouldnt it be far more effective to asess students on their achievements in relevant subjects? aswell as an aptitude interview? Becuase far too many Would-be-good-doctors are refused medical school becuase of their points,let down maybe, by a completely irrelevant to the course subject such as geography. Thus peventing those school leavers who achieved A's in Biology or Chemistry (far more relevant to those of a medicinal profession!?) but were not so succesful in other subjects such as art or french from pursuing what is perhaps thir true vocation in life. My point being taht entry requirments in my opinion should be based on the grades achieved in the course relevant subjects eg. a design student should be examined in art,and maybe a language. a medical student examined in mathematics and the science subjects, not turned away becuase of an unacceptable C in a completly irrelevant subject. This leaves many people who achieved over 400 points in the leaving certificate dissapointed becuase although much brighter and more able than most of the country, they will never be a doctor or a lawyer. The other main problem are with leaving certificate points is that of relevance.

For instance a prospective medical student may present an A1 in higher level geography worth 100 points when meeting the entry requirements, That subject when placed with five other A1 honours subjects allows its student the rare privelege of having 600 points.

Well done.

But what on earth is the relevance of geography to a doctor I ask?
Wouldnt it be far more effective to asess students on their achievements in relevant subjects?
aswell as an aptitude interview?

Becuase far too many Would-be-good-doctors are refused medical school becuase of their points,let down maybe, by a completely irrelevant to the course subject such as geography.

Thus peventing those school leavers who achieved A’s in Biology or Chemistry (far more relevant to those of a medicinal profession!?) but were not so succesful in other subjects such as art or french from pursuing what is perhaps thir true vocation in life.

My point being taht entry requirments in my opinion should be based on the grades achieved in the course relevant subjects eg. a design student should be examined in art,and maybe a language. a medical student examined in mathematics and the science subjects, not turned away becuase of an unacceptable C in a completly irrelevant subject.

This leaves many people who achieved over 400 points in the leaving certificate dissapointed becuase although much brighter and more able than most of the country,
they will never be a doctor or a lawyer.

]]> By: mike http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-47249 mike Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:41:16 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-47249 I am a fourth year student. I expect to do relatively well in the leaving certificate next year although the fact that my grades and so points may be demoted becuase other students achieved the same grade, just a higher percentage than I did angers me, as the points a student recieves in the exam often dictates the rest of their professional lives. This system needs to be scrutinised and changed accordingly so that anyone who achieves an A1 recieves their well earned A1 grade,and the respective points. Obviously, third level education institutes will be more willing to accept a student, the more A1's they achieve,the problem is that many peoples leaving certificate achievements are not reflected in the points they recieve. I am a fourth year student.
I expect to do relatively well in the leaving certificate next year although the fact that my grades and so points may be demoted becuase other students achieved the same grade, just a higher percentage than I did angers me, as the points a student recieves in the exam often dictates the rest of their professional lives.

This system needs to be scrutinised and changed accordingly so that anyone who achieves an A1 recieves their well earned A1 grade,and the respective points.

Obviously, third level education institutes will be more willing to accept a student, the more A1′s they achieve,the problem is that many peoples leaving certificate achievements are not reflected in the points they recieve.

]]> By: Billy Waters http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-16053 Billy Waters Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:31:34 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-16053 I hate to bang on about it but we tend to have a severe case of NIH in Ireland. Not Invented Here. Maybe because of the schooling or maybe because we are an island nation but we need to learn from other cultures. Its as if we are allergic to copying the best ideas from others. You were beaten for copying in School but copying is the ONLY way that monkeys like us learn. Instead of flinging our dirty pint glasses at the "Chingers" in pubs and telling them to go home we need to look at where they come from and how they learned in school. I see the way we treat them and it isn't pretty. We need to learn from them. Case in point - the fact that Chinese is a visual langugage and this visual nature lends itself to learning maths easier. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn9422&feedId=online-news_rss20 Instead of flogging a dead horse why not steal the best ideas of those countries who are able to teach vast numbers of people to do the math. Instead we look at the English or American system which is to coin a phrase absolute rubbish. Its thick as a nation to continue the way we are going with education. If a factory were producing 20% complete failures and another 20% marginal failures it would be shut down. I knwo I keep banging on about education but it is the basis for a civilised society. We have been given an opportunity by people coming here from abroad to learn from them and the way that they were taught and do things. The Chinese are an important culture and even the most superficial glance at the way they do things can help us. This may seem to be a random post but I think we are screwed if we don't learn from others. Making it up as we go along is a waste and ignorance is not a valid point of view. I hate to bang on about it but we tend to have a severe case of NIH in Ireland. Not Invented Here. Maybe because of the schooling or maybe because we are an island nation but we need to learn from other cultures. Its as if we are allergic to copying the best ideas from others. You were beaten for copying in School but copying is the ONLY way that monkeys like us learn.

Instead of flinging our dirty pint glasses at the “Chingers” in pubs and telling them to go home we need to look at where they come from and how they learned in school. I see the way we treat them and it isn’t pretty. We need to learn from them. Case in point – the fact that Chinese is a visual langugage and this visual nature lends itself to learning maths easier. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn9422&feedId=online-news_rss20

Instead of flogging a dead horse why not steal the best ideas of those countries who are able to teach vast numbers of people to do the math. Instead we look at the English or American system which is to coin a phrase absolute rubbish. Its thick as a nation to continue the way we are going with education. If a factory were producing 20% complete failures and another 20% marginal failures it would be shut down.

I knwo I keep banging on about education but it is the basis for a civilised society. We have been given an opportunity by people coming here from abroad to learn from them and the way that they were taught and do things. The Chinese are an important culture and even the most superficial glance at the way they do things can help us.

This may seem to be a random post but I think we are screwed if we don’t learn from others. Making it up as we go along is a waste and ignorance is not a valid point of view.

]]> By: Sarah http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-16036 Sarah Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:12:12 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-16036 See Frank I do agree with the sentiment, especially Billy who put it like this "Kids need to learn to read and write, how to manage money, how to manage themselves and their emotions and what they eat." But I am still at a loss as to what is the alternative. How do you decide who can do what course at third level? Surely some kind of exam is unavoidable? And therefore remembering and regurgitating is inevitable? Maybe if we taught Philosophy and taught people how to think and asked some really general question on the paper? But then, I for one, am useless at thinking things through on the spot, I always need time to digest. I dunno...give me an alternative and let me reflect. See Frank I do agree with the sentiment, especially Billy who put it like this “Kids need to learn to read and write, how to manage money, how to manage themselves and their emotions and what they eat.” But I am still at a loss as to what is the alternative. How do you decide who can do what course at third level? Surely some kind of exam is unavoidable? And therefore remembering and regurgitating is inevitable? Maybe if we taught Philosophy and taught people how to think and asked some really general question on the paper? But then, I for one, am useless at thinking things through on the spot, I always need time to digest. I dunno…give me an alternative and let me reflect.

]]> By: Frank Bouchier-Hayes http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-16034 Frank Bouchier-Hayes Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:00:21 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-16034 Sarah, Much as I disagree with the path that Pearse took in 1916, the educational system that he accurately described as a murder machine is still with us. The points system establishes nothing more than the canny ability to cram a limited series of facts into your head and regurgitate it in an exam. Those who memorise better than others are rewarded with a better college place. What a load of bunkum. School should be about preparing children for the world of work and life in general. At present, it achieves neither of these objectives. By the way, just to make you feel better about your results, all I managed to achieve in pass maths was a C grade. Sarah,

Much as I disagree with the path that Pearse took in 1916, the educational system that he accurately described as a murder machine is still with us. The points system establishes nothing more than the canny ability to cram a limited series of facts into your head and regurgitate it in an exam. Those who memorise better than others are rewarded with a better college place. What a load of bunkum. School should be about preparing children for the world of work and life in general. At present, it achieves neither of these objectives. By the way, just to make you feel better about your results, all I managed to achieve in pass maths was a C grade.

]]> By: Billy Waters http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-15344 Billy Waters Sun, 18 Jun 2006 18:16:14 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-15344 http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm#author I found this after I had commented here. I stand by my opinion that being an obedient little show pony at school is obnoxiously pointless and ie only perpetuating a sick myth that school is where you get your education. In school all you learn is that you are a problem and to sit down and shut up. I regret every minute of school. A total and utter waste of time. All I learned that is useful I learned on my own and was punished for this in school. Only in my school did one of the thick kids spend most of his time in the computer room. That so called thick was me. http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm#author

I found this after I had commented here. I stand by my opinion that being an obedient little show pony at school is obnoxiously pointless and ie only perpetuating a sick myth that school is where you get your education. In school all you learn is that you are a problem and to sit down and shut up.

I regret every minute of school. A total and utter waste of time. All I learned that is useful I learned on my own and was punished for this in school. Only in my school did one of the thick kids spend most of his time in the computer room. That so called thick was me.

]]> By: Daniel K. http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-13771 Daniel K. Wed, 31 May 2006 11:49:32 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-13771 A bell curve is not to be expected. You can force one, or it can happen that one does not arise. A bell curve is not to be expected. You can force one, or it can happen that one does not arise.

]]> By: Johnny K http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-13746 Johnny K Tue, 30 May 2006 21:13:20 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-13746 Billy's point about money management is a good one, but I'd take it a step further. School leavers should be able to file a tax return (they should at least know they will probably have to file one at some stage in their lives), should understand the mechanics of how mortgages work, should be able to manage a monthly budget, and understand the possible trappings of a credit card. There's loads more but we should educate for the real world, not just the "Irish" world where everything will just work itself out. Billy’s point about money management is a good one, but I’d take it a step further. School leavers should be able to file a tax return (they should at least know they will probably have to file one at some stage in their lives), should understand the mechanics of how mortgages work, should be able to manage a monthly budget, and understand the possible trappings of a credit card. There’s loads more but we should educate for the real world, not just the “Irish” world where everything will just work itself out.

]]> By: blankpaige http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/comment-page-1/#comment-13745 blankpaige Tue, 30 May 2006 21:02:06 +0000 http://www.sarahcarey.ie/2006/05/28/if-nobody-fails-the-exam-the-qualification-is-meaningless/#comment-13745 Sarah, As ever you lead a brilliant discussion. My tuppence worth ..... The whole point of an exam isn't who passes and who fails. It is a competitive process designed to rank students relative to each other. While everyone today might be brilliant, some must be more brilliant than others. A bell shape curve is to be expected. Is'nt it a mathematical truism that the distribution of a sampling mean is always normally distributed even if the underlying data is not normally distributed. Or something like that. I'm not too hot on maths - I only got an A1 in the subject. No-one complains that all olympic runners finish the race. They just want to know who came first, second and third. Mind you, in Scotland (once internationally recognised as the best education system in western europe) no one is allowed to fail anymore. People who fail are described as "delayed achievement"! Sarah,
As ever you lead a brilliant discussion. My tuppence worth …..

The whole point of an exam isn’t who passes and who fails. It is a competitive process designed to rank students relative to each other. While everyone today might be brilliant, some must be more brilliant than others.

A bell shape curve is to be expected. Is’nt it a mathematical truism that the distribution of a sampling mean is always normally distributed even if the underlying data is not normally distributed. Or something like that. I’m not too hot on maths – I only got an A1 in the subject.

No-one complains that all olympic runners finish the race. They just want to know who came first, second and third.

Mind you, in Scotland (once internationally recognised as the best education system in western europe) no one is allowed to fail anymore. People who fail are described as “delayed achievement”!

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