01.23.06
Modern Etiquette
A welcome dinner party invitation was issued and gratefully accepted for Saturday night. We brought the usual tokens with a quirky touch to the hosts; a bottle of red wine, one half dozen of our lovely free range eggs and a bottle of champagne. Determined to make the most of a rare night out I put the Champagne in the fridge in plenty of time so it was well chilled and ready for me to drink. We arrived, made our presentation and when inevitably asked what I would like to drink I requested said Champagne. It wasn’t half bad and I felt the bubbly effects before I’d even the finished the glass. Perfect. Until a certain someone told me the next day that its bad form to bring champagne already chilled since it assumes an expectation of drinking it there and then (eh, yeah) and therefore insults the host by presuming that he won’t have the appropriate range of refreshments.
Particularly in the case of wine ( I suppose white) it is very bad since the host may have gone to some trouble to select wines for the dinner. When I defended my BYO style act my precious acquintance remarked that we weren’t students anymore and would I have brought a six pack and bottle opener with me as well? Put in this light, I felt a little fear that he may have had a point BUT I argued that an exception could certainly be made for champagne. Thoughts anyone?
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Johnny K said,
January 23, 2006 at 5:37 pm
Bad form my arse! When I go to parties I always bring my own bottles of Heineken. Why? Well I hate too many other mainstream beers, Budweiser, Carlsberg, Miller, you name it I don’t like it. Do I think that is bad form if the host already has a fridge full of Belgian goodness like Duval, or Chimay? Not in the slightest. I’m there because they want me to be there, not because they want me to change who I am for the sake of etiquette.
I always bring a nice bottle of wine as a present for the host (one that is not to used at the party) so the host knows that it is to be enjoyed by herself, and not all the party goers. Christ, what are we coming to when someone so ‘precious’ as your friend has so little to be bothered with, that they are reduced to pointing out something so trivial to you. It’s their problem Sarah, not yours.
the saint said,
January 23, 2006 at 7:31 pm
This is a sympthom of ireland going foreign when the rest of the world is thinking they should be more laid baqck like the Irish. With our new found weath we want to turn into the british royal family. It is bure social snobbery.
To be truly Irish is not to give a c**p about trivialities of chilling champagne it is to be accepting of any offering as a nice gesture.
So don’t worry about the wine you brought it as a gesture of kindness it is they who have the problem.
Pete said,
January 23, 2006 at 11:52 pm
If you wanted to drink beer, you probably would have brought a six-pack (as well as the bottle of wine-that’s a gift to the host). And, just in case they didn’t have a bottle opener, you would probably have slipped one into your handbag. Would they have been offended? I can’t imagine why they would.
Mary said,
January 24, 2006 at 9:54 am
Hi Sarah, it’s your sister here. I certainly would have no problem with what you did. Now maybe it’s an age thing, but for us young wans in our 20’s bringing your own drink to a dinner party is standard, including champers. Maybe we have no class, but one of friends in particular loves champagne so she always brings her own. It never occured to anyone to take offence.
Expecting a host to remembers everyones tipple would putting him/her/them under stress. Can you imagine if you had turned up with no champers and requested a glass and your hosts had none.
I also ask you to take into consideration what I did before christmas. For those new readers out there our family is a large extended one with everyone having a different drink requirement. Due to the fact that I have sky and a child free house, everyone seems to gather in my house (I also always have peanuts and smoke salmon). Before christmas I asked all those winters tale, budvar, miller, white wine, red wine, bulmers lovers to leave a supply of their favourite drink in mine. The only rule was no one was allowed to touch any one elses stash. Anyway not only did I supply an excellent location I also was guaranteed to have everyones drink, minus the stress.
Don’t over think things siss. The boys are right.
Gerry said,
January 24, 2006 at 10:25 am
When has the wine become a gift for the host? I expect to drink the wine I bring othwerwise I really would go for the absolute cheapest. Being made drink your own wine is the only guarantee of quality.
Wine drinking generally is more trrouble than it’s worth – a minefield of snobbery and etiquette none of which is understood by Irish people anyway apart from what they’ve gleaned from watching Frasier and Sideways. Anyone who does fully understand it you’re better off not having dinner with in the first place.
so you’re dead right about the champagne, in fact drink it in the car on the way over if you can to save sharing it out and drop a bottle of spumanti on the host. By the time you’ve added up the cost of your time and transport and the menatal stress of trying to think of something funny to say every few minutes they’re the ones that owe you a gift.
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 10:31 am
thank you Mary and excellent stuff Gerry. The reason I drank the champagne in the first place was to aid the creation of amusing remarks. There is a such a fine line between being the life and soul of the party and just bugging everyone by talking too much. The fear strikes the next day as I try to figure out which side of the line I ended up.
Well I suppose this really is a question of class (as in demographic profile) and self-identity. You see, I am quite sure that in certain circles (artistocratic or rich) it would be a huge insult to even bring wine, any wine since definitely that would denigrate the host’s cellar. The correct form of appreciation would be to send flowers the following day.
Upper middle classes with aspirations to the above class go down a step or two and present the wine but have no expectation of drinking it.
Then there are the hoi polloi who bring drink with the intention of drinking it themselves. Just because its champagne instead of a six pack theoretically shouldn’t excuse it.
I suppose there would be intellectual or odd types who drink highly unusual brands they could be excused. However, I suppose the host should really cater for them.
I thought I was the second category but it appears I am just hoi polloi, but with slightly more expensive taste.
You can take the girl out of the midlands, but she just moved back again….
tom said,
January 24, 2006 at 12:19 pm
I think it IS slightly off to bring the champagne and then ask to drink it. Look at it another way, would you bring a bottle of red and then ask the host for a glass of the specific wine that you bought when they offer you a drink? that is basically what you are doing, because its unlikely you would usually reply “champagne” to the open-ended question “what would you like to drink?” (to which the correct answer, surely, is “what have you got?”)
that being said, obviously the host SHOULD respond to champagne being presented by opening it. and there is nothing wrong with bringing wine to a dinner party – isn’t that what you are supposed to do? and white wine should be chilled, nothing wrong with that either. but once you’ve handed it over its up to the host what is served up and when.
tom said,
January 24, 2006 at 12:22 pm
btw there appears to be a different tom on here, with a capital T, who can’t sleep at night and knows who Naomi Wolf is. that isn’t me, in case anyone was wondering.
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Thank you Tom. Of my acquaintance Tom. I did notice the other Tom. His email i.d. says “fitz” on it so perhaps the stranger Tom would expand his I.D. We can’t have Tom Farrell being accused of Naomi bashing now can we?
And you see, Tom’s comment has acknowledged that there is something in my original question.
First off, I should say that the host in this question was delighted to open the champagne and others had a glass too (in which case I should have taken Gerry’s advice and tanked up beforehand). As a hostess I would generally tend to make a fuss of whatever token is brought and in the case of champagne, I would say “well thank you for this dahling. I actually have some Bolly on ice, so I’ll open that and put your cheaper version aside” ahno. I would open it BUT BUT BUT, what if I had ordered a case of lovely wine and had it already to drink and bad guest brought crap wine and had an air of expectation? could be tricky, especially if there were pre-menstrual women ready to take notes.
And didn’t everyone bitch about Michael Smurfit. At dinners in the K Club he was notorious for ordering one wine for his guests and then keeping a bottle of the good stuff to drink himself….
I know that’s slightly different but if a guest insisted on drinking their own red wine it would be equally rude and I think we can agree on that.
I propose the following then as being correct form: (note this is for dinner parties only)
1. If the guest has a particular preference for an unusual brand of drink I would suggest that the wives phone each other discreetly beforehand and guest wife should casually offer to host wife that she will bring the unusual drink. Host wife assures guest wife this is not necessary since she got some in especially anyway knowing that guest prefers this drink. This can be a lie and then she can rush out to shop under pressure and possibly resenting the intervention but get the drink in. Of course, if she is an excellent wife she will actually know the unusual drink preferred by guest and will have it in.
2. Chilled champagne can be the exception
3. White wine should not be brought chilled. Proper host would have decent white wine even if not strictly required by menu.
4. But proper host would marvel at excellent choice of guest and offer to put in freezer for later testing.
5. Guest should not expect red wine to be opened UNLESS it is an excellent one and host knows this and in most mannerly gesture opens this wine. Of course, if host doesn’t appreciate excellence of wine and simply puts it to one side then guest can judge and resent host and never bring wine again.
6. Wives write thank you notes to arrive before following week has ended.
7. No one breaks the only cardinal rule of dinner parties by creating a scene about ANYTHING.
Conor Delaney said,
January 24, 2006 at 1:24 pm
Jayzus… have you no tribunals to go to?
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 1:28 pm
ah yes conor, a slow week.
It occured to me in the meantime that a single men is pretty much exempt from all these rules. His only crime would be to bring no drink at all and drink all round him. If he didn’t drink he should bring something else, like flowers or a cake.
Conor Delaney said,
January 24, 2006 at 1:37 pm
Surely he would be expected to bring wine for himself (not said but understood) and flowers for the hostess? Perhaps forgetting the flowers would be as big a crime as not bringing drink? Indeed if he brought only flowers would he not be excused for not bringing drink? As for a cake, well that runs the risk of being interpreted as a comment on the hostess.. or am I reading too much into this?
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 2:03 pm
ah well, I think this is a sport exactly for those who enjoy reading far too much into the innocent faux pas’s (?) (pax) (can the pedants help out there please).
I agree that bringing flowers for the hostess as well as a bottle would be top notch behaviour. However, I think what I meant to say was that single men would not be so harshly judged as they are without a wife to school them in these matters. People would be prepared to forgive breaches of etiquette in a man (of course not actual rudeness, but just the unspoken customs). They expect the wife to know. Tom will go mad now because I am reducing this to a gender issue again. But it is customary for the wives to know what behaviour is required and therefore it is expected of them. But not single men who have no one to look after them and take care of such things. Unless they are gay. (haha, we can get it all in now). In my experience, single gay men are extremely polite. A single gay men could certainly bring a cake. A very very fancy one from the best patisserie. It’s single heterosexual men who tend to be a disaster area, but are indulged because sure god love them, they don’t know any better. Unless they are single heterosexual men who are latent and judge others harshly and the other golden rule (in addition to the not making scenes rule) is “judge not lest you be judged”.
So in conclusion (well for this comment anyway) if you are single heterosexual man who is either very good looking or very funny or very nice but simply unschooled in such matters and does not make scenes, you can get away with bringing no present or a bad present and everyone will forgive you.
tom said,
January 24, 2006 at 2:30 pm
“if you are single heterosexual man who is either very good looking or very funny or very nice but simply unschooled in such matters and does not make scenes, you can get away with bringing no present or a bad present and everyone will forgive you.”
reading between the lines I think you should remember to bring a present when Sarah’s sister invites you to dinner Leon.
Pete said,
January 24, 2006 at 2:41 pm
Faux Pie ? Probably not.
Sarah, once again, the insights you provide into the workings of the female mind have shocked me to the core. I couldn’t finish reading your 1:08pm post, my head hurt too much half way through. Maybe my wife is right when she says I just don’t have a feminine side.
However, you have confirmed something that I’ve long suspected, that women basically regard men as big dumb animals that have to be controlled, via a system of rewards and punishments, by female “handlers”. It’s mostly done with rewards before marriage, punishments after (do I sound bitter? Good).
Conor Delaney said,
January 24, 2006 at 2:48 pm
Ah you see, we are just bigger versions of the dolls they used to play with……;-)
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 3:22 pm
ah now lads, admit it, if you had no women in your lives would you a) have bought a house b) keep it clean c) invite people to it and d) have nice things like flowers in it. If the answer is yes to all of that then I think we know what THAT means, don’t we?
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 3:26 pm
here is a classic example of a man in need of a wife.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/18/
thanks to AFC for the link.
Pete said,
January 24, 2006 at 5:12 pm
Sorry, the link doesn’t seem to work.
I was a bachelor for many years, and did all of the above (ok, the flowers were indestructible houseplants). I’m a reasonable cook and I still do my own sewing and ironing. And car maintainence, of course. And I use moisturiser. What THAT means is that I’m an independent adult who can look after himself, despite my mother’s determination to keep me dependent on women (she actually cried as she watched me make an apple pie from scratch)
Back to the original discussion, I can’t help thinking that the idea of any type of social event is for everyone (hosts and guests) to enjoy themselves, not for people to impress each other with their cellers and knowledge of arcane etiquette. Am I just naiive?
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Try this link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/18/
might work.
Pete I find it very hard to believe you were a bachelor for MANY years with those skills. Your wife is indeed fortunate. Although there are cases where men lost the ability to perform certain tasks upon marrying – perhaps due to control freak wives. Tell me, have you RSVPed to an invitation (in writing) since you were married and have you sent a thank you note after a social occasion? Not attacking, just curious.
Gerry said,
January 24, 2006 at 6:23 pm
pete, for a metrosexual you’re on the money. my relative paucity of dinner invites might be a repayment for all these slights I never knew I had delivered. Imagine drinking the wine I brought. Shocking. I dislike the bloody things as a rule. It’s f..ing polenta this this and “this is gorgeous” that, you look great, lovely house, nice forks, white or red, changing glasses between wines like it makes a difference deep in to your second bottle, organic vegetables roated in olive oil, and then the whole thing starts again with “you must come to ours” . Cycle of pain. Much better with ham and cheese toasties and a few pints of guinness if you want to see your friends without the wankology.
And not once in my experience has it developed into one of the middle class coke binge or sex orgy that I read about in the papers. i know it goes on; where’s my invite? I feel like Leonard Rossiter in Rising Damp saying “There is no permissive society. Believe me I’ve looked”.
Sarah said,
January 24, 2006 at 7:21 pm
poor gerry.
I did hear of a dinner party once ( I knew someone who attended it). She claimed she left when the hostess started popping champagne corks from her, eh, you know…
Funnily enough I did actually end up under the table at this dinner. It was all quite innocent involving some French custom and the epiphany and the youngest person at the table having to get under the table and call out names of guests in a certain order. Anyway, I suppose if I could have spiced things up a little bit by getting busy while I was down there….
However, I must endorse the institution of the dinner party. I firmly believe that if a good host creates a convivial atmosphere with good food and plenty of booze (regardless of who provided it) and in my case, fine china and crystal, it does lend itself to a great night. I think it inspires everyone to behave their best instead of slouching around moaning. Gerry you will have to let me know when you are over next and I will host one for you and K. I’ll even take out the sauceboat..
Johnny K said,
January 24, 2006 at 10:32 pm
Sarah, maybe I should send you flowers for hosting such a meandering comment thread! Aw-shucks, I ate them, washed them down with some Veuve Clique, and inhaled some of Columbias finest snow. I gotsta go, an orgy waits for no man.
Gerry said,
January 25, 2006 at 10:34 am
I wish “sauceboat” was a euphemism, only I know better.
Pete said,
January 25, 2006 at 12:11 pm
>Tell me, have you RSVPed to an invitation (in writing) since you were married and have you sent a thank you note after a social occasion?
Never done that, ever, apart from weddings. What’s wrong with email?
> men lost the ability to perform certain tasks upon marrying
Of course. No point in doing something, only to be rewarded with the “that’s not how I do it” lecture.
> pete, for a metrosexual
Ouch, that hurt. I’ve never had a manicure, and most of my clothes come from out-door-pursuits shops. Does that get me off the hook?
> She claimed she left
Only because she accidentally picked the Skoda keys from the pile.
Sarah said,
January 25, 2006 at 12:19 pm
LOL. You see boys, what you have to remember is that while I complain bitterly about your sloth and freedom, these crimes lend themselves to making you the most enjoyable company. I never seem to strike up quite the same rapport with women but that’s because I know they are burdened by such matters as thank-you note writing and planning laundering schedules and taking offence where it was never intended. You lot have time to mess online cos your brains are free from such stresses.
Luke Mc said,
January 25, 2006 at 1:27 pm
Dinner parties are great. In my experience they are extremely drunken. I must confess, I never feel particularly oppressed by what temperature the white wine I bring is at. Is bringing it chilled not better than room temperature?
My only real quandary is how much booze to bring. One bottle per couple is traditional but seems scabby, so we’ve typically settled on two bottles. Some couples I know bring three – they’re well hard.
Gerry is suspect of any social activity that doesn’t involve pints of Guinness. I kinda see his point.
L
Sarah said,
January 25, 2006 at 1:37 pm
well now that is interesting. I knew a metrosexual/suspected latent who entertained on a regular basis and bitched heartily about couples arriving with one bottle even tho’ he had a case of his preferred vintage in. The point was that singles brought one bottle too so the couple were being scabby. To be honest, we would bring one bottle (champagne was a special that night) but something else like flowers, chocolate, farm produce (my dad’s blackcurrants or something). My goodness, to bring one bottle of inferior wine at the wrong temperature but two! How would one live with the shame.
Sinéad said,
January 25, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Given the price of decent champagne, I would have said it was a thoughtful gesture to bring a bottle, as well as the wine you mentioned. Too many people think you need an occasion to pop open the champers (not me).
I’m going for dinner in a friend’s house on Saturday so I’m in now in a quandary. Two bottles? Red or white? I tend to bring flowers too.
tom said,
January 25, 2006 at 3:06 pm
couples bringing only one bottle is an irritant.
that said I hosted a dinner party over christmas.
one singleton (not actually single but attended without his other half) brought a good quality bottle of wine.
one couple brought six cans of cheap lager from the off license.
another couple brought nothing whatsoever.
I will leave you to guess who these people were. you know all of them.
Sarah said,
January 25, 2006 at 3:12 pm
If any of these guests are readers of this blog I insist upon an immediate confession. I could guess but the potential to offend is so enormous I dare not risk it. Altho, I invite others to do so. PLEASE!
Mark Dowling said,
January 26, 2006 at 1:52 am
The nice thing about living in Ontario is that if someone brings you a crap bottle of wine/case of beer then you can take it back to the LCBO (www.lcbo.ca) and exchange it for something nicer! In Ireland you’re pretty much stuck with it – unless you have to visit an enemy in which case you can be a bollix and re-gift
Tom McEnaney said,
February 2, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Hi S,
Just for the record the story about Michael Smurfit giving one wine to his guests and keeping the petrus for himself is largely an urban myth.
regards,
Tom
Johnny K – Party Etiquette said,
February 9, 2006 at 3:19 am
[...] Sarah was recently looking for people’s opinions about whether bringing pre-chilled drink to a party is bad form? As you can see from the comment thread, the general opinion is that it is perfectly fine to do so, and people would be very surprised if the host was offended. [...]