11.20.05
Enda Kenny and Irish Language
Enda is, predictably enough, getting stick from the usual sources about his proposal to abandon compulsory Irish teaching in school. But here’s an interesting perspective that isn’t getting much notice. The Meath County Manager told my father that they are trying to price what it will cost to implement the Irish Language Directive JUST in Meath next year. It’ll come in somewhere around €500,000 euro. If there are roughly 30 local authorities, that adds up to €15m. That doesn’t include central government which presumably would cost far more. There are children going to school in rat-infested prefabs, but there’s money to spend on translating stupid documents into Irish that no one will ever read. Where is the anger? Have people just given up?
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 12:46 am
Sarah,
I’ll take it that your point that “there’s money to spend on translating stupid documents into Irish that no one will ever read” is another generalisation, that you noted on another thread you do sometimes:
“Every now and then, I think, Sarah, you really musn’t generalise so much.”
There are people,like me, who do get forms in Irish and do read- parts of-some annual reports and reports like County Council Hertiage Plans etc.
Basically, what it comes down to is this- not all documents are going to be translated into Irish. The cost of €500,000 for Meath won’t probably be repeated again. The Language Commissioner (and we are fortunate that we have an execllent one, and a nice guy at that) has said that the translation of documents will have to be reviwed in relation to demand. He said this the day (or day after) the issue was discussed in the Dáil when opposition TD’s and even the Taoiseach spoke about their doubt. I’m sure An Comisinéir had that view anwyay.
The figure of €500,000 relates a lot to the first-time translation of documents which will be reproduced again i.e they won’t have to be translated again, which is where most of the problem is.
A review in relation to demand will be carried out in the next year or two, and after that only documents that have a significant (and now I am generalising) demand will be translated.
It’s a pity that the only policies on the Irish language that are discussed in most of the English language media are about translation costs and Dingle/Daingean UàChúise. I’ve just come back from Tostál na Gaeilge in Galway, the biggest event in the Irish language (movements) calendar. Its held every two years and this year speakers included David McWilliams, Cathal Goan, Harry McGee and Eamon O’ Cuiv amongst many others. The amount of issues discussed, and being worked on, is huge. I wonder how much coverage it will get in tomorrow papers…
Sarah said,
March 27, 2006 at 9:49 am
Well, not one person asked to read the Clare Development Plan in Irish which cost €30,000 to translate.
You acknowledge my point in your own comment….translate documents that there is a demand for. Don’t automatically translate them.
You won’t read much in the papers about the Irish language because and I hate to be cruel about this, most people are just bored by the subject “what will we do about Irish?” I actually did think hard about writing an Irish language column but it just seemed impossible to come up with anything other than “gosh its desperate that we are losing our language, I’ll beat my chest tragically and cry out for change”.
For a lot of people, the format of teaching Irish and its lack of relevance to every day life ensured that the minute people walked out of school they turned their backs forever on the language. This does not mean I am an Irish bashing philistine. In fact, I woud love to speak Irish! But the current system did nothing for me or for the vast majority of people in this country.In fact, we had a marvellous teacher in primary school and I can honestly say I didn’t learn another word or piece of grammar in secondary school.I still managed to pass Pass Irish ( I think I got a B!)
In fact, while you say “It’s a pity that the only policies on the Irish language that are discussed in most of the English language media are about translation costs and Dingle/Daingean UàChúise” this is not true.
Fine Gael TRIED to put forward some very reasonable policies on the Irish language (it wasn’t just making it non-compulsory – they proposed making the exams 50-50 oral-written and ongoing training for Irish teachers etc) and they just got slapped around – by the Irish language movement.
If the movement took off the jack boots and would discuss the non-compulsory element without getting hysterical then maybe public debate wouldn’t be so polarised and thus predictable and thus such a turn-off for the non-Irish enthusiast.
I am very glad that the conference was successful. I would be very interested to know were the FG policies discussed and what was the general consensus on them.
Actually I read closely some of t-Imeallach’s blog last week and was thrilled that I actually understood about half of it.
Sarah said,
March 27, 2006 at 10:04 am
btw, Enda Kenny, Michael Noonan and Alan Dukes are all fluent Irish speakers. (Don’t know about Brutal, one gets the feeling not). I don’t think Bertie or Charlie could put two words together (unless scripted). How do they (FF) get to come off as the pro-Irish party?
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 3:41 pm
I’ll break down your points and try to answer them all:
“Well, not one person asked to read the Clare Development Plan in Irish which cost €30,000 to translate.”
That issue was brought up by a Green Party councillor there-who is also an Irish speaker. In this case you had to actually buy the plan (€50 I think) so I think that even Irish speakers would buy it in English-if they wanted to highlight points to most of their friends etc. I agree that it shouldn’t be translated if there is no demand. Actually this issue is almost dead because the Language Commissioner has said that translation will have to be reviewed in relation to demand. Everything might be getting translated over the next year or two but it will fizzle out to those with a demand for only.
“You won’t read much in the papers about the Irish language because and I hate to be cruel about this, most people are just bored by the subject “what will we do about Irish?—
I don’t like discussing it either, but until the issue ceases to be there I will. The Irish language obviously includes everthing and is not just about its future as a language. Your point is heard a lot, especially by Irish speakers.
“I actually did think hard about writing an Irish language column but it just seemed impossible to come up with anything other than “gosh its desperate that we are losing our language, I’ll beat my chest tragically and cry out for changeâ€Â.
If I could write an article on the Irish language I could think of a lot more e.g going to the Gaeltacht, gaelscoileanna, initiatives that are working, the growth of the Irish language media, amongst others.
“For a lot of people, the format of teaching Irish and its lack of relevance to every day life ensured that the minute people walked out of school they turned their backs forever on the language.”
I agree. There is a generational difference here. The syllabus changed a lot about 10 or more years ago to include essays on current affairs etc. Many people that went through the old system hate it while I think that a majority of students (even if its very close) now actually like it or don’t mind it. Many don’t care probably, but the level of hatred to it is not there anymore amongst most younger people today like their was.
Symbolically, in the two phone surveys carried out between 15-24 year olds on Irish being compulsory for the L. Cert(one by FG and one by Irish paper ‘Foinse’) a majority were in favour of the statuus quo, albeit 54% in the FG survey and 60%+ the Foinse survey.
“Fine Gael TRIED to put forward some very reasonable policies on the Irish language (it wasn’t just making it non-compulsory – they proposed making the exams 50-50 oral-written and ongoing training for Irish teachers etc) and they just got slapped around – by the Irish language movement.”
I know this issue got covered well, but it just goes to highlight to me how other issues aren’t being covered well. I personally found it sly the way Enda Kenny came out with “his” policy without 1) having a vote on it within the party 2) not raising the issues with activists that have been working very hard on the same issues over many years first.
“If the movement took off the jack boots and would discuss the non-compulsory element without getting hysterical then maybe public debate wouldn’t be so polarised and thus predictable and thus such a turn-off for the non-Irish enthusiast.”
The non-compulsory element has been discussed. FG held a day-conference on it a couple of weeks ago.I wouln’t say the movement got hysterical- that stereotype is gone of the movement amongst most people.
“I am very glad that the conference was successful. I would be very interested to know were the FG policies discussed and what was the general consensus on them.”
I discussed them with some people, and the head of Gaelscoileanna in the South spoke about them. The consensus is that everyone is against the non-compulsory policy from the people I talked to. The head of gaelscoileanna in the South said that she was at the FG conference and she spoke about all their policies. She agree with them as would most people, except for the non-compulsory policy. She also said that she thinks that Enda Kenny is trying to make out now, or was that day, that he was talking about a choice between two papers for Irish in the L. Cert – one for spoken Irish and a literary paper for native and fluent speakers. I know this is not true though as it is party policy (although no vote was held on it) and Olwyn Enright mentioned the policy in a letter to the Irish Times last week.
“Actually I read closely some of t-Imeallach’s blog last week and was thrilled that I actually understood about half of it.”
David McWilliams pointed out that most people in Ireland have a goodwill to the language, like the fact that we have a native language that makes us distinctive and that most people whould love to be able to speak it but they don’t have the opportunity. He spoke a lot about marketing to these people, like yourself, and marketing the language generally.
That’s was my organistation, Gael-Taca, do. I was talking to David for a minute and we’ll be talking to him over the next week or two.
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 3:47 pm
“btw, Enda Kenny, Michael Noonan and Alan Dukes are all fluent Irish speakers. (Don’t know about Brutal, one gets the feeling not). I don’t think Bertie or Charlie could put two words together (unless scripted). How do they (FF) get to come off as the pro-Irish party?”
Eamon O Cúiv is probably the best minister for Irish that we have ever had since 1922. Alan Dukes is good. I’ve never heard Michael Noonan speak Irish, although I heard he can.
Sarah said,
March 27, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Why are you against non-compulsory? Because you know everyone will drop it like a hot potato? And yet, you can hardly claim that making it compulsory has been successful. If making it compulsory has failed, why not try something different. Marketing is a very long way from forcing people to learn it. Marketing implies a choice. Is Eamon O’Cuiv’s brilliance as a minister due to his even more militant approach to the language? And the actual fluence of Kenny/Noonan/Dukes who can contribute and DO contribute to many Irish language programmes is just ignored because they dared to suggest change?
Isn’t whatever resurgence there has been in recent years due to the fact that cool clued in people in Dublin put their children in Gaelscoilleanna because of the lower teacher pupil ratios? And then because those schools were populated by interested middle class pupils they got great results and thus attracted even cooler middle class get ahead people? Didn’t David talk about this in his book?
Again I want to stress I am not Irish language bashing, I am just frustrated with the obvious terror of the movement from changing anything.
Finally, would you accept that TG4 and the Scannal series on telly have actually done more for the Irish language than all the compulsory teaching since the foundation of the state has done?
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 4:34 pm
“Why are you against non-compulsory? Because you know everyone will drop it like a hot potato?”
I’d say about half of the students would drop it.
“And yet, you can hardly claim that making it compulsory has been successful.”
It has been successful in the sense that most people that have gone through the educational system in Ireland have a good knowledge of it, but don’t think that they they have the opportunity to speak it much.
“If making it compulsory has failed, why not try something different.”
The syllabus has failed in my view, not the compulsory nature.
“Is Eamon O’Cuiv’s brilliance as a minister due to his even more militant approach to the language?”
I disagree with him on a lot but the Official Languages Act is a great achievement, outside of Dingle/An Daingean.
“And the actual fluence of Kenny/Noonan/Dukes who can contribute and DO contribute to many Irish language programmes is just ignored because they dared to suggest change?”
They rarely contribute to Irish language programmes. In fact Noonan and Dukes have not even said in the Irish language media that they are in favour of the new policy. I haven’t heard them anyway.
“Isn’t whatever resurgence there has been in recent years due to the fact that cool clued in people in Dublin put their children in Gaelscoilleanna because of the lower teacher pupil ratios? And then because those schools were populated by interested middle class pupils they got great results and thus attracted even cooler middle class get ahead people? Didn’t David talk about this in his book?”
It has more to do with the “HICo quest for authenticity” from my reading of the chapter. Many people just read the article in the Irish Times, instead of the edited article in the Irish Times.
“Again I want to stress I am not Irish language bashing, I am just frustrated with the obvious terror of the movement from changing anything.”
That is a total generalisation. We are the people that are driving the change, and I spoke about the huge number of issues that were discussed, and that are being worked upon, over the weekend.
“Finally, would you accept that TG4 and the Scannal series on telly have actually done more for the Irish language than all the compulsory teaching since the foundation of the state has done?”
Perhaps, but most people wouldn’t watch them, despite their subtitles, if they didn’t have a decent knowledge of the language.
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 4:35 pm
I meant to say “Many people just read the article in the Irish Times, instead of the unedited chapter in the book.”
Sarah said,
March 27, 2006 at 5:03 pm
guilty there!
have you got a copy of your speech? I did have pestering David for his on my to-do list this week…
Dunno about your view of the telly tho. My husband watches the TG4 weather cos the girls are really cute. Sex will sell anything! And I watch the Scannal programme cos its really really good. Full credit to Sarah Ryder the producer.It’s the only time since I left school I’ve watched a programme in Irish….
I still think making people learn a language is a mistake and I just do NOT get how I haven’t heard one bit of praise for the fact that Kenny, Dukes etc ARE irish speakers. Like what do you really want? An Taoiseach who can’t put two words together but plamasses you guys by not rocking the boat or politicians who actually CAN speak the language. Some pretty obvious party politics in the “movement” there..So much for a living language…
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 5:49 pm
“have you got a copy of your speech?”
I didn’t make a speech. I tried to point out that it was the FG policy still to change the compulsory nature of Irish and that Olwyn Enright mentioned the policy in a letter last week in the Irish Times, whatever mixed signals Enda Kenny, may, have given out at their conference. There wasn’t enough time as the Q&A sessions were fairly short.
I am a committee member of Gael-Taca in Dublin.
http://www.gaeltacabac.com
We focus on promoting Irish in the business sector. Over the last three years we have been working with over 150 property developers offering them Irish names for new developments. We do a lot of other stuff as well e.g. help setting up gaelscoileanna, signage in shops,pubs and we have a radio programme in Cork that is rebroadcast on a few stations. We also sponsor a few sports teams down in Cork.
We are best known for being a Cork organisation and we have a couple of full-time workers there. We have a relatively new Dublin branch though and we work on a national basis.
“I did have pestering David for his on my to-do list this week…”
It was very good and funny. He should have more reasons that most to be turned of the Irish language considering what happened to him on an infamous night in Béal an Daingean in Galway in the late ’80’s…
“Dunno about your view of the telly tho. My husband watches the TG4 weather cos the girls are really cute. Sex will sell anything! And I watch the Scannal programme cos its really really good. Full credit to Sarah Ryder the producer.It’s the only time since I left school I’ve watched a programme in Irish….”
‘Ardán’ (kind of like the Late Late Show in Irish) on Saturday night is very good, even though it is usually only of for an hour. ‘Comhrá’, ‘Teenage Cics’ ‘7 Lá’, ‘An Tuath Nua’ and the Nuacht are very good as well
“I still think making people learn a language is a mistake and I just do NOT get how I haven’t heard one bit of praise for the fact that Kenny, Dukes etc ARE irish speakers.”
Alan Dukes hasn’t been mentioned because he hasn’t joined in on this debate, I think. Irish speakers recognise that Enda Kenny speaks Irish, but we are going on the policy not the person.
I acually was looking forward to Enda Kenny becoming the next Taoiseach because he speaks Irish, and well I hate the current govt. on everything except the Irish language and the North. I don’t love them on the North, but lets say that John Bruton turned me off FG and the North.
“Like what do you really want? An Taoiseach who can’t put two words together but plamasses you guys by not rocking the boat or politicians who actually CAN speak the language. Some pretty obvious party politics in the “movement†there..So much for a living language…”
I know a lot of Irish speaking activists, and I don’t know any of them that vote for FF, although one or two may vote for an individual candidates. Actually probably more would vote for FF in the West of the country. In Dublin, more would proportionally vote for SF and the GP than the general public I think.
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 6:21 pm
“It was very good and funny. He should have more reasons that most to be turned of the Irish language considering what happened to him on an infamous night in Béal an Daingean in Galway in the late ’80’s…”
I’m not joking about a time that David got beaten up. I know what some of those b*stards are like. I came up against some of them in Gaoth Dobhair in Donegal a few times.
In retrospect you can laugh at these things although they are not funny at the time. Indeed those b*stards in Gaoth Dobhair are still there according to some of the papers.
Sarah said,
March 27, 2006 at 7:30 pm
oh well, I guess the Shinners did as much for the language as anyone else. Didn’t the loyalist prisoners take it up in the Maze when they realised that the IRA prisoners had learnt it thus enabling them to thwart the prison officers?
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 8:02 pm
I’m not sure. I know there have been/or are some (maybe only one) loyalist murals in Irish, and I saw a flag for the Red Hand Defenders in Irish in a paper.
Ian Malcom, a former advisor to David Trimble, has a column in the Irish paper ‘Lá’. Eoghan Harris speaks Irish and David McGimbsey speaks a bit. I read a good article from a book recently about people from Unionist backgrounds learing Irish.
Pádraig O Cuanacháin, the main person of Gael-Taca, actually met David Irvine before and told him that he is a republican but that politics and the Irish language are totally different and shouldn’t be mixed. There aren’t many people on the island that Pádraig hasn’t talked to.
I was just looking for a quote there from the book ‘Ireland 1912-1985 Politics and Society’ by J.J Lee for this quote:
“Policy for about two decades has clearly been to let the language die by stealth.” p 672 1993
and say that SF worked this vacum well between 1970 to 1990’s when I came across this- actually the pages 658-674 are really essential to anyone interested in the Irish language, or at least to anyone who wants to be more aware of where we are now in relation to it and how we got here.
“The failure, however, did not lie in the schools. It was the blatant failure of the state itself to devise arrangements for the subsequent use of the language that largely discredited compulsory Irish. The children were given no incentive to master Irish as a living language, only as a dead one. The charade of Irish language tests for public employment, when everybody knew the language would hardly be used again, the whole fetid system of favouritism associated with language knowledge, as distinct from language use, inevitably left its mark, stamping the most idealistic and most important task undertaken by the new state as yet one more sleazy political racket. Genuine language lovers who ‘loathed the way that politicans, the pedagogues, the urbanised peasants had sucked the life and beauty from it’ were brushed aside. The characteristic combination of hypocrisy and incompetence precluded any possibility of increasing the number of Irish speakers, as distinct from increasing the nominal command of the language among a broadly benovolent but apathetic and sceptical public. As a French observer has commented, the state ‘fulfils the letter of the project, the better to betray the spirit…it prefers to use Irish as a sort of symbol of nationality, more of less relegated to a ritualistic and ceremonial role.’
p 671
Sarah said,
March 27, 2006 at 8:35 pm
I have that book. Very accurate!
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 9:21 pm
I believe the spotlight of Irish, through the Irish language movement and just as importantly through non-Irish speakers who are benovolent or ‘baúil’, is now everywhere in Ireland except in a prominent way in the business sector.
There are examples like David McWilliams noted in his book and noted again in his speech on Saturday of young and trendy pubs and clubs with Irish names like ‘RÃÂ-Rá’ and ‘Anseo’ in Dublin, and he correctly concludes in my view, that it would not have happened in the ’80’s.
We, Gael-Taca, are the only ones working on marketing the Irish language. I believe we also have named businesses in Irish- I have to find out. There was a whole page article about us in the Property Section of The Sunday Times actually last year.
Vodafone said today that they would have predictive text in Irish within a few month. Promotion of Ireland has to be holistically done. At once the business sector is being worked on beidh an teanga ceart go leor.
Darren Mac an PhrÃÂora said,
March 27, 2006 at 9:22 pm
“Promotion of Ireland has to be holistically done.”
Freudian slip.